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Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Let me off the planet please. Hoping this is sarcasm but I can't find it.

CA Judge May Have Created Huge Challenges For Contractors


I couldn't believe it when I read it. A California Superior Court judge by the name of Paul M. Haakenson ordered Lowes to pay $1.6 million dollars for selling 2x4's that are not really 2" x 4".

Yes, your read that right!

According to the Marin County, CA district attorney's office Lowes "unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale." To put it a different way, prosecutors say that if products, including building products like a 2x4 or 2x8, aren't actually 2" x 4" or 2" x 8" when purchased, consumers are being mislead.
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Been that way a VERY long time in the US. That's a rough cut nominal size before final dimensioning/planing (tho we do both at the same time now). Not a lawyer but where in the add where it list 2x4 does it say 2"x4" or even mention inches. Apparently this is news to a few in CA who got a judge to go along with them. They have been 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" for a long time, longer than anyone involved in either side of the case has been alive.
 
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Duppin_sl

shitlord
3,785
3
That's interesting. I knew they were smaller than 2x4 would imply, but not by a half inch in either direction. That seems like a lot.
 
Malakriss

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,656
11,973
The metric system. It comes. The 1,000 years of darkness and prefix learning has begun.
 
Chris

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,436
-10,733
Malakriss_sl said:
The metric system. It comes. The 1,000 years of darkness and prefix learning has begun.
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kilo=x1000, centi=/100, milli=/1000.
The horror. A whole three most people actually use!
smile.png
 
Woefully Inept

Woefully Inept

Karazhan Raider
9,260
36,779
Sounds like "50 inch class" TV's that are actually like 48.5 inches or some shit. I always hated that. Just tell me exactly what the size is please.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Duppin_sl said:
That's interesting. I knew they were smaller than 2x4 would imply, but not by a half inch in either direction. That seems like a lot.
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Been that way a long time, you rough cut it to 2x4 and mill 1/4" off each side give or take. You aren't buying 2"x4" or even paying for 2"x4". It's just a name.
 
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Duppin_sl

shitlord
3,785
3
If it's an industry standard the way it is, I think the judge's ruling is a little stupid and not likely to stand up in higher courts.

The name should probably be a bit more descriptive, though, since not everybody buying lumber is a professional.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
You're gonna be pissed when you find out 1/2" plywood isn't a 1/2" thick either.

Maybe they should learn to read, nowhere does it say a 2"x4" piece of lumber or mention inches at all.

A 12 volt car battery puts out a hell of a lot more than 12 volts as well, maybe I should sue......yeah maybe.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Because it's incredibly stupid. Suprised they didn't get them on the length as well. An 8' 2x4 isn't 8' either. Normally you get an extra 1/4 to 3/4" of an inch to work with.

I'm angry because eventually people who have half a brain wind up paying for it.
 
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Duppin_sl

shitlord
3,785
3
I'm just trolling you a little. No harm meant!

I wonder why those arguments weren't made in court, or why they weren't persuasive to the judge if they were.
 
A

azeth

6,216
8
Borzak_sl said:
Because it's incredibly stupid. Suprised they didn't get them on the length as well. An 8' 2x4 isn't 8' either. Normally you get an extra 1/4 to 3/4" of an inch to work with.

I'm angry because eventually people who have half a brain wind up paying for it.
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hate to break it to you, but just because something's normal doesn't make it right.

if it's labeled as such, it should be as such.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Azeth_sl said:
hate to break it to you, but just because something's normal doesn't make it right.

if it's labeled as such, it should be as such.
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It's not labeled 2"x4". It's labeled as a 2x4, period.

Waiting for this ass hattery to reach our industry. I work in steel. Ocasionally we sell to the general public when someone wants a drop (a piece we cut off of something else).

Not all 10" beams are 10" deep. Some are 9-7/8" and 10-1/4" etc... you get the exact number by the designation 10x19 10x21 with the second number being pounds per foot. Waiting for someone to sue us to selling them a 10" beam that isn't 10". Some 14" beams can be a foot or so in difference in depth, good thing we don't give those away or sell the drop.
 
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Duppin_sl

shitlord
3,785
3
Oh, come on. Stop rattling out the "it's not 2"x4"!" crap. The designation clearly came from the inches involved, and even you admit that it's the rough measurements at one point in the process.

Don't get me wrong; I think the ruling is a bit silly. But there's a decent case to be made that there should be a disclaimer for the layperson that they're not getting the size wood that they reasonably would expect, even if it doesn't necessarily matter.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Apparently the word "normal" isn't taught anymore. Back to your nanny state that has to explain how everything works to you.

A 10" beam isn't 10" either. It's called nominal, look up the word.
 
OneofOne

OneofOne

Silver Baronet of the Realm
6,883
8,687
It seems like if this was something done correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be having this issue today. 1/4 inch off on a 10'' length isn't a biggie, but 1/2'' on 2'' is, if you aren't aware.

(not that I think courts need to get involved, but something the industry should take care of)
 
Void

Void

BAU BAU
<Gold Donor>
9,796
11,712
I sure hope that is a joke. As you said, it has been that way far longer than any of us have been alive, and if you've ever done anything even remotely handy you'd have encountered this. And switching to metric wouldn't change anything, since it was named off of the pre-worked dimensions. You'd just have people bitching that it wasn't exactly 5x10 then.

EDIT: I'm not opposed to them making people put up a warning or some shit in Lowe's and Home Depot, but fining them? Fuck that. Why not fine every fucking architect that has specified 2x4s over the years, and every contractor that has supplied them, because "the owner isn't getting what they expected"?
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
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33,203
Because when you first bought 2x4's they were milled at all. People wanted milled lumber and mills were already set to rough cut a 2x4 that was 2"x4". But we couldn't have that so they just milled more off.

I still don't know why people don't udnerstand the word nominal.
 
OneofOne

OneofOne

Silver Baronet of the Realm
6,883
8,687
Not joking no. I'd love to see a survey of responses to "what are the measurements of a 2x4, etc" asked of the general public.
 
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