2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Conefed
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Adding maps to EQ made this immensely easier and is a seeming no-brainer, but Because it reduced that difficulty, I think something was lost. (Dyes are bad too)
EQ had some extra 'twitch' in the form of melee strikes and some spells pushing NPCs and PCs around, which I'm not sure I've seen replicated in other games but that I sorely missed. That helped keep melee players engaged.
The auto attack snoozing of EQ I think mostly comes from corner tanking raid mobs (which I think was probably not good for the game; although push on large targets should be reduced) combined with the hate mechanics which glue mobs to tanks; also virtually every raid boss being one gigantic sack of hitpoints instead of multiple. You see some effort to try and change this with later raid designs-- Emp and HP required CC groups and was a first attempt at it, but I found that to be somewhat tedious/dull for the CCers. PoP had some better attempts at it by making many raid bosses hate wipe the top hater at random, forcing tank switches; also by having multi-mob encounters where you simply needed to tank and kill multiple targets simultaneously. What I'm trying to say is that you can make the fights signifncantly more interesting without adding any additional combat abilities/rotations/whatever beyond what classic EQ had.
I would like to see an MMORPG that radically altered the hate mechanics and AI to be much smarter or at least much more varied and unpredictable, then reduced the NPC damage so healers didn't splat, as well as making most of the raid content more like 'armies vs armies' instead of one sack of hitpoints. (but otherwise be very classic EQish) Maybe this had been tried in some form, but I find all new MMOGs to be garbage so I don't look closely at them. Not quite sure how to pull that off without blurring the class roles too much though.
The auto attack snoozing of EQ I think mostly comes from corner tanking raid mobs (which I think was probably not good for the game; although push on large targets should be reduced) combined with the hate mechanics which glue mobs to tanks; also virtually every raid boss being one gigantic sack of hitpoints instead of multiple. You see some effort to try and change this with later raid designs-- Emp and HP required CC groups and was a first attempt at it, but I found that to be somewhat tedious/dull for the CCers. PoP had some better attempts at it by making many raid bosses hate wipe the top hater at random, forcing tank switches; also by having multi-mob encounters where you simply needed to tank and kill multiple targets simultaneously. What I'm trying to say is that you can make the fights signifncantly more interesting without adding any additional combat abilities/rotations/whatever beyond what classic EQ had.
I would like to see an MMORPG that radically altered the hate mechanics and AI to be much smarter or at least much more varied and unpredictable, then reduced the NPC damage so healers didn't splat, as well as making most of the raid content more like 'armies vs armies' instead of one sack of hitpoints. (but otherwise be very classic EQish) Maybe this had been tried in some form, but I find all new MMOGs to be garbage so I don't look closely at them. Not quite sure how to pull that off without blurring the class roles too much though.
Vlett
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Or that random ranger would "taunt" for the 2 second boss flip...all for fun of course!
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Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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A lot of the mechanics that WoW has came up with on different raid encounters for tanks are fine, I think. I didnt "hate" tanking in EQ, but it was a far cry from fun. If you took away the popularity of being such and such guild's main tank and always having a group in EQ, I doubt I would have kept playing mine.
nevergone
Low IQ Vegan Pacifist
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What I miss the most in modern MMOs is effective and game changing crowd control.
Yes, there should be a dedicated crowd control class.
Yes, you should need or greatly benefit from crowd control.
Working with sleeps, stuns, roots, etc should be a component of party based game play.
Watching the presence of crowd control diminish over the years in popular games because it's too complex and has implications for PvP that can remedied with separate rulesets for abilities is disappointing.
Yes, there should be a dedicated crowd control class.
Yes, you should need or greatly benefit from crowd control.
Working with sleeps, stuns, roots, etc should be a component of party based game play.
Watching the presence of crowd control diminish over the years in popular games because it's too complex and has implications for PvP that can remedied with separate rulesets for abilities is disappointing.
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Social media killed MMOs, along with basically every game being online now. The magic of having friends online and playing games together is blasé.
Then there's problem of target markets. Gaming has always had this problem. Back when we were playing Quake and EQ and shit, Big Game Hunter and bs games from a bin in Walmart were killing it sales wise. Now mobile trash and accessible shit is where you go for the easy $$$. I'm hoping someone comes along and does for MMORPGs what Sony is doing for single player games. Otherwise it's going to be an indie dev who actually starts making something instead of just talking about it. There is a market targeting the losers on fohguild progression forum 3.0 having the same fucking thread for 20 years.
The fact some cleric is MQing their rotation shows they are playing the game despite the shitty combat. There is something to a big dangerous world with a bunch of lore to explore with your friends. I disagree the focus should be on player politics and shit, because current era stuff is boring. MMORPG players are all closet RP fags and as long as there is deep interesting lore to explore in the world that seems ancient and full of secrets, RPG players will be there.
Oh, and it has to be forced first person.
Then there's problem of target markets. Gaming has always had this problem. Back when we were playing Quake and EQ and shit, Big Game Hunter and bs games from a bin in Walmart were killing it sales wise. Now mobile trash and accessible shit is where you go for the easy $$$. I'm hoping someone comes along and does for MMORPGs what Sony is doing for single player games. Otherwise it's going to be an indie dev who actually starts making something instead of just talking about it. There is a market targeting the losers on fohguild progression forum 3.0 having the same fucking thread for 20 years.
The fact some cleric is MQing their rotation shows they are playing the game despite the shitty combat. There is something to a big dangerous world with a bunch of lore to explore with your friends. I disagree the focus should be on player politics and shit, because current era stuff is boring. MMORPG players are all closet RP fags and as long as there is deep interesting lore to explore in the world that seems ancient and full of secrets, RPG players will be there.
Oh, and it has to be forced first person.
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MMORPG players are all closet RP fags and as long as there is deep interesting lore to explore in the world that seems ancient and full of secrets, RPG players will be there.
Oh, and it has to be forced first person.
I was crucified on these boards when I said the above two things. watch out, you in danger
jayrebb
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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This would be the only answer. The Ice Giants of the techworld (not DBG) would have to strategize how to use an mmo as a loss leader and then both design good content / world but distribute it for free w/ no pay to win.
Like, everytime you loot something you have to upload an instagram or enter your zip code. Or maybe pornhub would work. Every time you loot something you have to upload a dick pic.
Some guilds do that already, anyway.
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KCXIV
Molten Core Raider
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Amazon might be working on 2. I know a dev that works there and i talked to him about 2 weeks ago, im like that new world mmo looks pretty nice man. He goes, it does, but thats not the game im working on. lol im like well ok! haha
Chris
Potato del Grande
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How to create classes is one of the oldest questions there is. I still think D&D got like 90 percent right.
No need to reinvent the wheel. We need to reinvent the market!
Amazon needs to offer an MMO where you can order pizza from your keyboard!
Oh, wait a sec......
No need to reinvent the wheel. We need to reinvent the market!
Amazon needs to offer an MMO where you can order pizza from your keyboard!
Oh, wait a sec......
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For a pve model I would like to see something like uo back in the day. Full on skill based, classless system. The more you use something you level up that skill, thus opening up new branches upon reaching certain milestones. Everyone could have, say 3-5 major skills and 3-5 minor ones. So for instance you put one point into fireball, you continue to level up the fire ball making it more powerful and at the same time opening up new paths on a skill tree to take that fireball skill and mod it, for example fireball becomes forked fireball with 3 projectiles, or it becomes a meteor, etc... This system of course would have to have some sort of balance, for example the more in magic you spec, the less weapon choices are available to you, same with armor. Maybe layer in a stat system, so that in order to have good magic skill you need tons of wiz or int, but then you cannot have so much str to wear that heavy armor, or use 2h swords efficiently, etc...
So while yes you could build a battle mage, he wont be as tanky as a pure warrior type, and wont have enough magic skill to be as powerful as a pure mage type, but still powerful enough as a hybrid to still be an asset and powerful.
I think a system like this is really great for mmorpg because it lets you build whatever the fuck you want to build, truly unique character. Also it lets the devs add in new skills as the game grows as well.
So while yes you could build a battle mage, he wont be as tanky as a pure warrior type, and wont have enough magic skill to be as powerful as a pure mage type, but still powerful enough as a hybrid to still be an asset and powerful.
I think a system like this is really great for mmorpg because it lets you build whatever the fuck you want to build, truly unique character. Also it lets the devs add in new skills as the game grows as well.
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Randin
Trakanon Raider
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Since we're on class design, what I'd like to see is efforts to make classes (or skill categories, if they go classless) feel more immersive (yeah, I'm kinda one-note in what I want to see for MMOs). Put differently, I'd like to see if we can reach as point where a wizard feels more like a wizard, and less like a ranged DPS that has a bunch of fire effects on its attacks.
One element of that would be to try and expand classes outside of their combat functions to include out-of-combat utility. Hell, it'd be interesting if an MMO could be designed where utility could be as important as combat, and where you could actually design classes that--while they can contribute in combat--are actually utility-focused, and have it feel balanced. Imagine a game designed such that rogues are principally desired for their lockpicking, trap disarming, and stealthing, with backstabbing just being an added bonus, and having it still feel good to everyone.
The other thing that's struck me as a way to differentiate classes and make them feel more like the "real" thing, is to make it so that different types of powers aren't just differentiated by what abilities they provide, but also how you gain abilities, and how you cast the abilities. So, martial combat skills are acquired and used differently than arcane spells, which are acquired and used differently than divine miracles, and so on. More pure classes (warriors, wizards, clerics) have a single system to learn, while hybrid-style classes (paladins, bards, etc) work with multiple systems.
One element of that would be to try and expand classes outside of their combat functions to include out-of-combat utility. Hell, it'd be interesting if an MMO could be designed where utility could be as important as combat, and where you could actually design classes that--while they can contribute in combat--are actually utility-focused, and have it feel balanced. Imagine a game designed such that rogues are principally desired for their lockpicking, trap disarming, and stealthing, with backstabbing just being an added bonus, and having it still feel good to everyone.
The other thing that's struck me as a way to differentiate classes and make them feel more like the "real" thing, is to make it so that different types of powers aren't just differentiated by what abilities they provide, but also how you gain abilities, and how you cast the abilities. So, martial combat skills are acquired and used differently than arcane spells, which are acquired and used differently than divine miracles, and so on. More pure classes (warriors, wizards, clerics) have a single system to learn, while hybrid-style classes (paladins, bards, etc) work with multiple systems.
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nevergone
Low IQ Vegan Pacifist
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Here's a utility idea: light.
Remember in EQ playing as a race that lacked night vision? Now apply something like that on a broader scale.
Have night actually be dark. Have dungeons be dark and dangerous. Monsters hiding in dark corners, pits and traps you can fall into if you don't see them and take the appropriate action to mitigate them.
Then give different classes utility to bring light to those dark areas. Clerics with holy relics that shine, wizards that can summon light stones. Fire spells that actually illuminate surroundings. Torches that can be crafted, found, and consumed. Give bonuses similar to how it works in Darkest Dungeon.
Darkness and danger are definitely missing in modern MMOs; nowadays dungeons are more like Disney experiences, perfectly lit and setup like dioramas.
Chris
Potato del Grande
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I often made a character with out of combat utility in mind, what shortcuts the class would offer. Eg Mage Teleports.