Advertising: Pro's and Con's of Various Media

Shonuff · Feb 21, 2013

Julian the Apostate_sl said:
We never did TV because I always thought local company ads with local company budgets look like shit beside the multi million dollar Coke ad that runs before and after it. I know another roofing contractor in the area that did TV for a year and wasn't happy with the results. Sorry man, I really don't mean to shit on something you're excited about but that's just my thoughts on it. I sure it can work if done properly.

No one in my industry is on radio or billboard like I am, and it's made me #1 here locally. The other Winters, I've lost upwards of 100k keeping my workers paid. I've lost $0 this Winter. So I'm playing with house money, why not experiment? Everyone said I was nuts for doing radio and billboard, yet sales are growing at a 20% clip annually in a recession. Most tree care businesses shutdown for the Winter, but we are knocking back 2k a day in service fees, and working six days a week. We used to be just like them, only working two days a week. I can track where sales are coming from, and it's all new mediums of advertising that drives it. I can sit back and see that Internet advertising brings in 5k some weeks, as well as radio.

There is an HVAC company here that I've talked to several people that worked there. Same principle, they charge like $60-75 per man hour before parts.Except that they've got 30 workers going six days a week.I figured that they were doing $10-12 million a year, not bad for a service business. Since profit margins are higher in a service businesss, I'd venture to say that they are netting 5m a year, or 400k a month.

I've actually called the stations where they were on, and developed enough relationship where they show me what this company is doing, even down to spot times. I'm ripping that for radio and TV.

Fortune favors the bold. I want to find the next big thing that will boost sales. Internet, newspaper, expanding to other yellow pages and billboard all resulted in huge bumps in sales. Hell, sometimes NPR spots will bring in 5k in a week. I'm just looking for the next big thing.

It's not even about the money, it's about seeing how large we can grow.

Julian The Apostate · Feb 21, 2013

Yea I do admit to being a little timid to pull the trigger on TV with the numbers involved. To get a good TV campaign I would think I would have to spend about as much on it as all my other advertising combined. Is there any type of long term contract involved in TV?

Shonuff · Feb 21, 2013

Julian the Apostate_sl said:
Yea I do admit to being a little timid to pull the trigger on TV with the numbers involved. To get a good TV campaign I would think I would have to spend about as much on it as all my other advertising combined. Is there any type of long term contract involved in TV?

I usually sign up for a year to get the lowest rate, but then I add in a bailout clause. Most of my contracts for radio and billboard I can cancel within 30-45 days notice, no reason needed.

Izuldan_sl · Feb 21, 2013

Maybe it's different in the Midwest? When I did television advertising (in California), you basically tell them what your budget is, and you buy spots. Certain shows and certain time slots cost more. First and foremost know what demographic you are trying to reach, and what shows they watch. The cable company should be able to provide you for this information. For example, I was trying to reach women between the ages of 25-55, so my best shows slotted to stuff like Oprah, America's Next Top Model, and Housewives of Orange County. Shows like Desperate Housewives were extremely expensive because it was on a major network on prime time, so you have to spread your budget carefully.

Would you rather your ad air fewer times on programs with the highest viewership, or would you rather your ad run many times on shows that may not be as popular? Usually it ends up being a blend of the two.

In the end, your budget will determine how many times your commercial will air and at what times and what frequency. Once your budget is used up, you can always give them more money to air your commercial more times. Or you just don't give them any more money and you are done. There was no yearly contract, in my case. Again, maybe this is just California.

Also from my experience, radio and TV are VERY industry specific, meaning not all industries should be on TV or radio. This is in opposition to the internet, which I feel every business should have a presence on. So whatever industry you are in.....are others in your industry on TV or radio? If not, then either it has been tried before to little success, or you are going to be the vanguard and find out if it works for your industry.

In my particular case, one of my businesses is often on both radio and TV, and I used both. At the time my television budget was $10,000 a month and radio was $20,000. Personally radio did not work for me, I was not able to recoup the costs. Television was about break even, maybe a little better. Something that is difficult to measure, however, is imprinting....maybe after watching and listening to the ads, they subconsciously looked for my business, and even though on the customer questionnaire when asked "how did you hear about us?" they may have put down "internet" when they actually were drawn to look me up on the internet because of the TV or radio ads.

I haven't done radio or TV in about 3 years, and this last year I got rid of the yellow pages entirely. My biggest referral source is now previous customers and the internet. The ROI on my SEO costs and pay-per-clicks is insane, like 500%. I never broke over 50% with radio or TV or print, and yellow pages got me 200% a decade ago, but nearly nothing now.

I am also in a different situation than Lyrical, who wants to grow his business as large as he can. If you are in that situation, then it would make more sense to spend more on different mediums. Personally, my business is fortunately to the point where I am more worried about quality control than growth, so I don't really want to grow the business as big anymore, but focus on quality so I can charge customers more - I want higher margins instead of the headache of an even bigger company.

Shonuff · Feb 21, 2013

Izuldan_sl said:
Maybe it's different in the Midwest? When I did television advertising (in California), you basically tell them what your budget is, and you buy spots.

I'm going to spend 2k a month on one of the local stations, and just be on the news. One could actually lock in lower rates for the entire year right now on contract, since demand for advertising is at its lowest in Q1.

Izuldan_sl said:
Would you rather your ad air fewer times on programs with the highest viewership, or would you rather your ad run many times on shows that may not be as popular? Usually it ends up being a blend of the two.

Lack of frequency is a strong reason why campaigns fail. Everyone wants to save money, but you need some weight.

Izuldan_sl said:
Also from my experience, radio and TV are VERY industry specific, meaning not all industries should be on TV or radio. This is in opposition to the internet, which I feel every business should have a presence on. So whatever industry you are in.....are others in your industry on TV or radio? If not, then either it has been tried before to little success, or you are going to be the vanguard and find out if it works for your industry.

Too many owners in my industry are too busy doing the work, but not planning, which is why I'm eating off of their plate. Seriously, I'm done playing the "who can be the biggest in the yellow pages" game. I'm happy with my ad mix except on one station. Every thing else in the mix is yielding a strong ROI.

Izuldan_sl said:
In my particular case, one of my businesses is often on both radio and TV, and I used both. At the time my television budget was $10,000 a month and radio was $20,000. Personally radio did not work for me, I was not able to recoup the costs. Television was about break even, maybe a little better. Something that is difficult to measure, however, is imprinting....maybe after watching and listening to the ads, they subconsciously looked for my business, and even though on the customer questionnaire when asked "how did you hear about us?" they may have put down "internet" when they actually were drawn to look me up on the internet because of the TV or radio ads.

I still find that being in multiple places helps more than anything. All I want is for people to consider me when they are looking for a bid (which I do at my cost). Frequency and impressions are important, and impressions count across all mediums. By the time a customer has been referred to me, seen me on billboard, heard me on radio, and then saw me on the Internet within the course of a few days, they can't wait to sign up.

Right now, I'm outspending everyone of my competition in every medium. If one of them steps up and starts to crowd me out, it doesn't matter. I'm taking more of a wholistic approach, and it all feeds on itself because all of my mediums are consistent in brand image. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Izuldan_sl · Feb 23, 2013

Lyrical_sl said:
I'm going to spend 2k a month on one of the local stations, and just be on the news. One could actually lock in lower rates for the entire year right now on contract, since demand for advertising is at its lowest in Q1.

If it works for you great. I've actually never heard of yearly contracts for TV ads. One thing I would be concerned about is ad fatigue. If your ad plays too often, eventually the viewers/listeners will tire of it and tune out when it comes on. You rarely ever see a commercial, TV or radio, run for more than a few months at a time. Think about it. It works if you can create new ads every few months though. When I did TV campaigns, I usually ran them for 3-6 months, then took a break for 3-6 months, and then restarted with a new ad.

Lyrical_sl said:
Lack of frequency is a strong reason why campaigns fail. Everyone wants to save money, but you need some weight.

Actually frequency is a red herring. What's important isn't how many times your ad airs, it's how many people are viewing (impressions) that is important. Look at the original Apple MacIntosh ad....it played a single time only, but it happened to be during the Super Bowl - and it got a huge response.

It doesn't matter if you have higher frequency if your ad plays at 2 AM in the morning when hardly anyone is watching. You might be better off playing it just once or twice during prime time. Again, budget considerations is the rate limiting factor, obviously if you could just spend endless money your ad would run non-stop during the most popular shows at the best times. However, because most of us need to budget, you need to decide whether or not you want to have it air more frequently during off-hours, or less frequently during prime time. In my experience, the best solution isn't one or the other, but rather a blend of the two.

My final comment is aimed mostly for Julian. I would ask around your area regarding other businesses response to TV ads. Ask other owners what their ROI for TV is. Don't ask just the ones the cable people tell you to call, obviously they are going to ask you to solicit just their most successful customers. Cold call some of the TV ads you see for local businesses and see if the owner(s) are willing to divulge their experiences. Lyrical seems to be doing well with TV, and that's great. For myself, I was on TV off and on for about 5 years, and stopped roughly 3 years ago because the ROI for TV was going down for me. It was still generating positive revenue, but it was on the decline, and had been, for years. My own theory is that the newer generation of viewers are now watching regular TV less, and more and more people are taping shows, using tech such as DVR. I know I do it myself. Like others, I just fast-forward through all the commercials now. Also, people are watching shows more and more on the internet, like on Hulu, and you are not going to capture that market with your cable ads. I think this is even more true if you are trying to capture a younger audience, like 20-30 year olds.

Shonuff · Feb 23, 2013

Just to clarify, we've never run TV commercials. This will be our first time. We hope to be on by mid-March. We'll cut the commercial next week. TV seems to be working for some other service companies in the area, that are running enough frequency. The one HVAC company in the area that runs 30 guys is spending 5k a month on the TV station I'm talking about running on. I'm hoping 2k a month, in the same timeslots they are in will yield decent results. All I want to do is run at maximum capacity all year, meaning I need enough work to force me to hire two to three guys. I'm not trying to run 30 guys, I just want to be able to keep eight busy all year.

The goal is to never have to layoff a guy that is doing good.

Selix · Feb 24, 2013

Do any of you do email advertising? Newsletters? Spam? Comeback offers? Specials/Coupons to inboxes? Etc.

If so how have the results been?
If not is there any reason why not?

Corndog · Feb 24, 2013

Selix_sl said:
Do any of you do email advertising? Newsletters? Spam? Comeback offers? Specials/Coupons to inboxes? Etc.

If so how have the results been?
If not is there any reason why not?

I sent out my first newsletter using mailchimp this week. I have 41 subscribers, my retail location isnt open yet. However I would say it was a huge success. I requested that people email me back in what they were interested in me stockign fish wise. I received 7 emails back. Mailchimp also showed me that 75% of the people opened the email and 69% clicked on the web link I put in the email. I'd say that is a home run because it was all free.

Izuldan_sl · Feb 25, 2013

Selix_sl said:
Do any of you do email advertising? Newsletters? Spam? Comeback offers? Specials/Coupons to inboxes? Etc.

If so how have the results been?
If not is there any reason why not?

I do quarterly mailers to my subscribers. Initially I used Mail Chimp, I have nothing but good things to say about that service, it was very easy to use and fairly inexpensive. You will be doing a lot of the things yourself, like coming up with your own ads, but the tools they give you are pretty good. I don't remember the number anymore, but you get a certain number of emails for free, and then they start charging, it is a pretty high number like 2,000, so for most businesses it's fine. Now I have outsourced all my advertising to a third party, so they manage all my ads in print, internet, email, etc.

I've never spammed, I hate spam, I'm sure 99.9% of people hate spam. The way I built up my client list was that everyone fills out a demographic form, and that form is a line for an e-mail address, next to it says "can we contact you through e-mail for future updates and promotions?" and they can check yes or no. Every month cull through your client list and have your staff update your e-mail list.

I do an informative newsletter quarterly. I think it's a fine line between keeping your customers interested, and having them view it as spam and just deleting it without opening it. I think the same thing with radio or TV ads, repeated viewings leads to ad fatigue and people tune out. I definitely think something like daily or weekly is too much, fuck Banana Republic, Williams Sonoma, etc that spam my email box with their weekly shit, I love both companies' products but I've since unsubscribed to both because it's just too much. It's up to you to decide how much you want to advertise through e-mail, I used to do once a month but since then have decreased.

I don't think there is a down side to it unless you do it too much and you are viewed negatively for spamming. The cost is practially zero, except for your own time.

I have never used Groupon or any other similar service, so I can't comment on their effectiveness, but I do not like their business model. Part of the problem with coupons/discounts is you tend to get people who are cheap, and even if they end up liking your service, they refer their cheap friends who end up wanting the same discount later on when they come in, even if you are no longer running the promotion. I think doing it occasionally or judiciously is OK, just don't make it a routine part of your business model.

opiate82 · Feb 25, 2013

I think a couple of keys to effective email marketing are content and avoiding cannibalization. You have to give people a reason to read and you don't want to offer deals on things people were already going to buy anyways. If they are on your email list they are already your customer so you want to focus on getting them to purchase more than they normally would and/or getting them to come in more frequently.

As far as Groupon, from people in my industry that I have talked to say it isn't worth it. If you include the amount of discount in the overall cost of the promotion the costs per redemption are even higher than blanket print. And the customers you attract are either regular customers you were going to get anyways, cannibalizing your sales, or discount seekers who will only come in due to the discount and won't otherwise. Plus it is nearly impossible to predict the response and thus staff for the Groupon promotion. You can get overwhelmed with orders causing a drop in customer service which might drive away your current customers as well as any new ones you could potentially gain.

Also, as a side note, those of you who were interested in some print mailing vendor information that I had, my meeting with them was pushed back till March when I will see them at the pizza convention and in the mean time I've grown a little wary of possibly connecting my RL stuff with these forums after the whole Rav thing. Not that I have anything to hide but when it comes to my business I can't be to careful. If I can find a way to get you guys in contact while maintaining an acceptable level of anonymity on my part I will let you know.

Tmac · Feb 26, 2013

I guess this post belongs here. Just finished a video for my biz:

Embedded.

Shonuff · Feb 26, 2013

opiate82_sl said:
Also, as a side note, those of you who were interested in some print mailing vendor information that I had, my meeting with them was pushed back till March when I will see them at the pizza convention and in the mean time I've grown a little wary of possibly connecting my RL stuff with these forums after the whole Rav thing. Not that I have anything to hide but when it comes to my business I can't be to careful. If I can find a way to get you guys in contact while maintaining an acceptable level of anonymity on my part I will let you know.

There are too many crazies on this board to release anything personal. I don't blame you.

Tmac · Feb 26, 2013

Lyrical_sl said:
There are too many crazies on this board to release anything personal. I don't blame you.

You're both paranoid. Not saying it's unfounded, but still...

Shonuff · Feb 26, 2013

Tmac47_sl said:
You're both paranoid. Not saying it's unfounded, but still...

Sorry, look at all of the trolls that have been here lately, piling up the infracts. They just do it for fun, that's not paranoia. I might do it on a board devoted to small business, but there are too many posters here that have no interest in any thing but causing drama.

Shonuff · Feb 26, 2013

Tmac47_sl said:
I guess this post belongs here. Just finished a video for my biz:

Embedded.

This is just my opinion, but that ad is too long. The first minute should be cut down.

No offense.

checkyeah_sl · Feb 27, 2013

Lyrical_sl said:
This is just my opinion, but that ad is too long. The first minute should be cut down.

No offense.

It's definitely more of an informational video than an ad. Not sure how you thought it was an ad Lyrical, but your ads aren't too short and to the point either =p

Here is the ultimate question. Is this video for a specific purpose or just supposed to be an overview or eye catcher for what you do? This video makes you look like a non-profit in the beginning then at the end it has testimonials on your service.

You have a ton of good footage there and I would also recommend shortening the video. You had it building up well in the beginning, I'd get your point across and end it there with your brand. Your brand seems to come after the finale and no one cares at that point. Also save some of the stuff like "be responsible" and "Steward." It doesn't really make sense for your customer and I'd spin it at another angle than TimberUpdate is doing it's part. Why are you trying to act green? Aren't most of your customers considering monetizing their land? You've got beautiful environmental related shots that will capture their attention - you should be selling it at that point.

I've got some other thoughts about it that I'll try and post later

Tmac · Feb 28, 2013

checkyeah_sl said:
It's definitely more of an informational video than an ad. Not sure how you thought it was an ad Lyrical, but your ads aren't too short and to the point either =p

Here is the ultimate question. Is this video for a specific purpose or just supposed to be an overview or eye catcher for what you do? This video makes you look like a non-profit in the beginning then at the end it has testimonials on your service.

You have a ton of good footage there and I would also recommend shortening the video. You had it building up well in the beginning, I'd get your point across and end it there with your brand. Your brand seems to come after the finale and no one cares at that point. Also save some of the stuff like "be responsible" and "Steward." It doesn't really make sense for your customer and I'd spin it at another angle than TimberUpdate is doing it's part. Why are you trying to act green? Aren't most of your customers considering monetizing their land? You've got beautiful environmental related shots that will capture their attention - you should be selling it at that point.

I've got some other thoughts about it that I'll try and post later

There are reasons the landowners we talk to don't want to manage their timber:
1. They don't trust timber companies
2. They've had a bad experience with logging companies ruining their land
3. Consultants that don't make sure everything goes smoothly
4. They see their land as more an aesthetic investment and not a competitive form of investing to the stock market (9% ROI)

I want to build anemotionalincentive for people to respond to. Managing your timber not only puts money in your pocket, but it's also the best thing you can do for your forestland. Everything in timber management mimics nature (burning, thinning, clear-cutting), it just streamlines the process to effectively yield a 25%+ increases on the return you'd otherwise see if you didn't do anything.

There are even some species of trees that thrive when you do prescribed burning on your property. Long-leaf pine won't grow well without it.

Besides that, I want my website to look and feel lived in, while showing people that being a good steward not only puts money in your pocket, but positively effects your land, IF it's done right. Ryan Klesko, is in the video too and he's really well known around here, so it adds a bit of street cred to my business as well.

------

The video will be featured on the home page of my website.

Tmac · Feb 28, 2013

Lyrical_sl said:
Sorry, look at all of the trolls that have been here lately, piling up the infracts. They just do it for fun, that's not paranoia. I might do it on a board devoted to small business, but there are too many posters here that have no interest in any thing but causing drama.

True enough. Like I said, it's not unfounded. It just impedes the discussion; the scoundrels.

checkyeah_sl · Feb 28, 2013

Tmac47_sl said:
There are reasons the landowners we talk to don't want to manage their timber:
1. They don't trust timber companies
2. They've had a bad experience with logging companies ruining their land
3. Consultants that don't make sure everything goes smoothly
4. They see their land as more an aesthetic investment and not a competitive form of investing to the stock market (9% ROI)

I want to build anemotionalincentive for people to respond to. Managing your timber not only puts money in your pocket, but it's also the best thing you can do for your forestland. Everything in timber management mimics nature (burning, thinning, clear-cutting), it just streamlines the process to effectively yield a 25%+ increases on the return you'd otherwise see if you didn't do anything.

There are even some species of trees that thrive when you do prescribed burning on your property. Long-leaf pine won't grow well without it.

Besides that, I want my website to look and feel lived in, while showing people that being a good steward not only puts money in your pocket, but positively effects your land, IF it's done right. Ryan Klesko, is in the video too and he's really well known around here, so it adds a bit of street cred to my business as well.

------

The video will be featured on the home page of my website.

Understand that your point of view isn't the same as the customers point of view. You are certainly doing a great job of covering the topics you think are important however you lose the audience around half way in - as Lyrical said, and as I'm saying. What I'd recommend is breaking the video into three parts that are themed around the message you are trying to get across. 3 videos is also better from a marketing stand point!

Advertising: Pro's and Con's of Various Media

Mr. Poopybutthole

Vyemm Raider

Mr. Poopybutthole

shitlord

Mr. Poopybutthole

shitlord

Mr. Poopybutthole

Lord Nagafen Raider

Lord Nagafen Raider

shitlord

Bronze Squire

Adventurer

Mr. Poopybutthole

Adventurer

Mr. Poopybutthole

Mr. Poopybutthole

shitlord

Adventurer

Adventurer

shitlord