Altered Carbon

When I first heard this was gonna be on TV, I immediately thought "Oh, this is one of the few shows, like doctor who, where they can change the lead actor practically at will and it actually works fine". So, I fully expect the lead to be gone for next season, if it's renewed. Unfortunately, if they follow the books, they won't be able to re-use almost any sets as it's completely different. It's not even a mystery story so much. More like an apocalypse now in the future. Might be even more expensive in terms of special effects to pull off. Guessing netflix is doing an estimate of that versus how well this season does. Might need it to hit 'Orange is the New Black' levels of interest to get renewed.

I really loved the books, quite possibly some of my favorites in a long time, but I still really liked the show. I do disagree with a few of the changes they made, but I also understand why they did them. The book has no real love interest for Kovachs, he just fucks Ortega a bit, they both acknowledge the relationship has a time limit and it's likely just due to existing chemistry between Ryker/Ortega. Plus, the Quellcrist stuff just feels like background/world building for a long time. It's a slow burn on why that's all important until the last book. The creators had no idea if this would go a full 3 seasons, so you have to make us care about her if you are gonna include anything about her at this point. While there are other ways they could have done this, and it wasn't exactly great, I was 'fine' with it. Need a love interest to hook some viewers, and book Takeshi wouldn't resonate as well.

A big part of the writing style is having Kovachs remember his Envoy instructor's (Virginia Vidaura) lessons as inner monologue. The best way they could show this and save time was to combine her and the Quellcrist stuff into one. I was surprised, though, they took the time to acknowledge one of the random red shirt envoys as being 'Vidaura', when Kovachs finds her after the attack and calls out her name.

I do wish they had really hit home how badass Envoys actually are. I mean, they sorta did, but Envoys are super, super badasses in the books. Best soldiers in history. The problem with policing an empire spanning galaxies is by the time you physically move soldiers to the planet, decades have passed. There is no super warp speed technology to get physical things there in an instant, only data. They were conditioned to needle cast in, fuck shit up and get out. They are unmatched in single combat, sure, but they also can destabilize regimes, create rebellions, whatever was necessary if brute force wouldn't work. Their 'intuition' bordered on telepathy. They are experts at body language, reading people, coercion, etc.. A single Envoy being sent could potentially bring a regime down given enough time. If the entire Corps was sent? You were fucked. It's how the Protectorate keeps control over all the planets, with the threat of the Envoys. Takeshi uses this fact as an intimidation factor on many occasions. Some people are scared shitless of Envoys. It's also why they can't get real jobs when they leave, they are legally barred from holding a political or military position of any kind (other then staying an Envoy). Most just stay in the Corps for life, or end up being criminals/mercs if they leave.


Sorry for the rambling, just really love the books. Glad to see it made into a TV show. Even if it's not perfect, it was still great and I binge watched it in two sittings.

Finished yesterday, show was mediocre overall with some good stuff (universe mainly felt alive, Poe character / IAs) and bad stuff (a lot of characters, even though alive, felt very dead acting wise, though some of them have quite flat dialogues).

And then happens THE SISTER story.

The last couple of episodes are dragging the show from 5/10 to 0/10, the sister acting was atrocious, her arc story didn't make any sense at all (I did it all for you brother) and there's some of the worst writing ever going on, during the last episodes characters are either explaining what's happening on screen or say profoundly dumb stuff (war is bad uhh, rich people are selfish mkay) posing like they know what the fuck is going on while being 1upped constantly by the bad guys.

I thought "how can someone write something so bad nowadays" then I googled the showrunner's bio to find she wrote both Alexander and Terminator Genisys. I guess I have my answer.

I was all on board and loving it... until episode 7. I actually yelled at the screen 'please get your hallmark bullshit out of my cyberpunk'

Screamfeeder said:

Yeah that's now how it works, at all. You don't really "hire" showrunners or EPs.

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He means, you dont have a round of interviews and choose some specific candidate out of a pool. Most of the time its them coming to the studio to pitch it, if they pick it up that person becomes the show runner. There is rarely some other person they can choose. Its either pick up the project with that person or dont do it.
There are exceptions, it doesnt always happen like that, but it doesnt work the way normal companies do

oh i had no idea the showrunner was a chick i thought it was the author or maybe that miguel sapo dude. thats a bummer and explains why the sister got jammed in so hard and why quell turned into way more than she should have been. yeah, the envoys being the OG envoys would have been so much better, this weird rebel faction that accomplishes nothing and gets snuffed out was dumb

also it made me think, if any kids were born in stronghold they wouldn't have had stacks implanted in them. i wonder how complicated it is putting the stack mechanics into a body. i also never really liked the whole idea behind "the protectorate doesn't allow multi sleeving", it feels like it should be really trivial to have secret bases off planet that let you easily multi sleeve and keep it running hidden from everyone. Like why bother running a giant dead hooker floating ship, you could make billions more and have way more power running an illicit multisleeve operation somewhere off planet where you can absolutely guarantee immortality no matter what happens. Hell, a genius evil plan would be secretly keeping clones of everyone who asks you to multi sleeve them, so that way you could someday send in replacements for every powerful person in the universe and control EVERYTHING with your own multi sleeve army. Maybe thats the plot of book 2 or 3, still reading book 2.

end of the day the show has a lot of massive flaws but i still hope it succeeds because if it fails no one is gonna wanna do cyberpunk, period. If it does well maybe someone will do something better.

sneakyflute said:

Only watched the first two episodes but god damn the acting is so wooden. Does it ever improve?

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I'm up to episode 6 and this is what just keeps crossing my mind. They are just not great actors.

The hotel dude is great though.

So far it's OK. The scenery is amazing. The story unfolds pretty well. 7/10 so far.

Having never read the books I couldn't fathom what made Envoys so special that a 300+ year old trillionaire would bother to arrange a pardon for one in order to play detective for him. All the flashbacks served to do was showcase generic action sequences that any competent fighter in the show seemed capable of replicating, some forgettable "resistance" mumbo jumbo, and a band of idiots hiding (poorly) in the woods. The books idea sounded much better and it's a shame that they couldn't bother to stay faithful even to the basic premise of the damn series.

That aside I was enjoying the show up until the halfway mark when I started to get annoyed by how low tech this supposedly high tech world is. Random people and known pests can show up and crash the parties of immortal overlords, the ubiquitous surveillance only functions selectively and requires people to rummage around because automation doesn't exist... except for running hotels and whatnot. Also security systems and personnel might as well all be henchmen from an old batman movie for how effective they were. But it was still tolerable until the sister showed up and stole the show with her immobile facial features and empty, repetitive lines about doing everything for US while ordering Tak to do something or other or everyone dies! Or something but she cares, truly. People were paid for this? That and the ending scene at the Bancroft estate were just preposterous; his downfall was treated as if he was a stockbroker or something instead of an immortal that has owned the local government presumably for a couple centuries and who has business dealings so stable and far reaching that his family might as well be considered a nation state. The closing moment where all the cops he owns waltz into his home and he meekly goes after learning that he was drugged into violating his honor... just blah. It contradicts what we know of his character and just continues the theme of characters accepting things that they really shouldn't remarkably easily.

I wish the season had stayed focused on Bancroft, the politics of the world and what made Envoys Envoys, all of that interpersonal nonsense they conjured up out of nowhere did nothing but annoy me and sent the story down a rabbit hole of nonsense. When the final episodes credits began to scroll by I took a breath of relief and shook my head at the prospect of another season of this.

BTW casting Max Headroom as the fight promoter and Galen the Technomage as the guy at Head in the Clouds were nice touches

Gask said:

The closing moment where all the cops he owns waltz into his home and he meekly goes after learning that he was drugged into violating his honor... just blah. It contradicts what we know of his character and just continues the theme of characters accepting things that they really shouldn't remarkably easily.

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It really just ruins the ending.

Even if Bancroft had killed someone just out of the blue, he would have an army of lawyers. It doesn't matter what the "people" would believe, it would be what a rigged judicial system would believe. When you add that he did it while drugged, which is a huge piece of exculpatory evidence, its just something that would be laughed out of court.


The only way it makes any sense is to read it as him walking off with the cops because he knows they have nothing on him and he will be home in an hour with every cop that arrested him getting demoted and their careers ruined.

One of the few entities with any power/authority over Bancroft was the U.N./Protectorate. The fact that he swayed the decision on the one bill, 632? I think it was called, and there was proof of this.. is what got them involved. The public perception had changed, so they were the ones pulling the strings now. They mention this in the show, but it was a somewhat quick line during voiceover, so i could understand how it wasn't obvious. Had this just been a regular murder, without the U.N. being involved, then yes.. Bancroft could have gotten away with it quite easily, had he wanted to fight it. However, it was also that he believed actually murdering someone (real death, no re-sleeve) was a line he'd never cross. He was disappointed in himself and felt he deserved punishment for it. So, he wouldn't have fought it either.

khalid said:

It really just ruins the ending.

Even if Bancroft had killed someone just out of the blue, he would have an army of lawyers. It doesn't matter what the "people" would believe, it would be what a rigged judicial system would believe. When you add that he did it while drugged, which is a huge piece of exculpatory evidence, its just something that would be laughed out of court.


The only way it makes any sense is to read it as him walking off with the cops because he knows they have nothing on him and he will be home in an hour with every cop that arrested him getting demoted and their careers ruined.

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Yeah this. Considering Bankroft was depicted as some totally untouchable billionaire that can get a terrorist off ice and stop UN resolutions, the whole scene where Normal Joe cops show up to arrest him (including one that's on the take) made no sense. The whole ending felt rushed and nonsensical.

Overall, the universe and lore was super cool, but it wasn't capitalized on in terms of story and acting.

7/10

Enzee said:

One of the few entities with any power/authority over Bancroft was the U.N./Protectorate. The fact that he swayed the decision on the one bill, 632? I think it was called, and there was proof of this.. is what got them involved. The public perception had changed, so they were the ones pulling the strings now. They mention this in the show, but it was a somewhat quick line during voiceover, so i could understand how it wasn't obvious. Had this just been a regular murder, without the U.N. being involved, then yes.. Bancroft could have gotten away with it quite easily, had he wanted to fight it. However, it was also that he believed actually murdering someone (real death, no re-sleeve) was a line he'd never cross. He was disappointed in himself and felt he deserved punishment for it. So, he wouldn't have fought it either.

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I remember this but there was no damning evidence available to prosecute Bancroft with, only a video clip of some sleeve talking who can't be questioned further. Everything in the end was based off of the deductions of some former terrorist hireling and Bancroft's own inexplicable willingness to self destruct over events that he has no memory of. Also who is the public? Not the meaningless surface dwellers so you must mean his fellow Meths which begs the question question why? Not a single one of his peers was portrayed as a competitor or enemy of any consequence so the whole resolution just felt flat, silly and hastily put together.

I remember Miriam even saying 'so what? A criminal makes up a story' and Takeshi had some other response, i think it was about Mary Lou testifying now that they are over ruling the religious coding. So, it's another, independent, testimony that will match the story. In any case, it was enough to convince the UN there was an issue, so once they have a reason to look at it, the evidence would match up, too. They just didn't know about it, or have reason to investigate, before.

Also, individually the ground dwellers aren't powerful, but unified they are still a problem. That's a fact of any society, the ruling class keeps them relatively satisfied and they passively allow them to rule in return. Piss off your entire population enough and you get a rebellion. But, there are people in between the 'grounded poor' and 'air born Meths' as well. That's just the two ends of the spectrum.

I'm surprised anyone is having a big problem with the resolution, that part seemed pretty straight forward and logical. It's also almost exactly the same as the book (from what I can remember anyway, been a year or so since I read it).

no season 2 order yet from netflix but interview with showrunners on what they may do
'Altered Carbon' showrunner on season 2 shakeup: Who’s likely to return

Well Mary Lou knew nothing about what was done to her chip, all she could say was that Bancroft real killed a prostitute in an establishment that probably had clauses in place to protect their clientele from the repercussions of any sort of "accidental" killing anyway. I mean look at what went on there. And of course what you are saying makes perfectly logical sense in our world but given the setting and technology available in the show how are we to know that a popular uprising is a concern there? Most of the characters portrayed were a few steps short of a Mad Max society anyway.

The problem is that the show lacked the world building that would have tied everything together to make it really work and that's the reason most of us are having a problem with it I imagine. That and Bancroft receiving a personality 180 without anything but hearsay available to convince him and in that room and with those people to witness it? Just no. Look to our own billionaires, do you think they would be where they are if they just surrendered whenever charges are leveled against them? They make that stuff go away most of the time and Bancroft should operate several orders of magnitude beyond them. That little police surprise? The stuff on the news? He would have been informed about that well before the ball truly got rolling and it would have been absolutely crushed. That is unless the man did have some serious enemies but the show failed to provide any.

That said I could be giving the man too much credit but who's to know? They focused so much on Tak's dreadlock girl, Ortega, angry black man and the sister that it left barely a sliver of time for the central plot of the story.