Ancient Civilizations
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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You need reflection, not lensing. Lensing will not make you able to see things in your past light cone - you need the light to travel forth and then back to see X thousand of years.
The Turyshev 2020 proposal uses the lensing from the sun to get a telescope with a 25km resolution on exoplanets. You just have to send your telescope about 500 AU out.
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Kharzette
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I'm guessing it would have been one of the florida ports, but that was so long ago who knows? The sea currents and winds might have been totally different back then.
The mining was done in minnesota I think?
Loser Araysar
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I never heard of Phoenicians crossing the Atlantic to Western hemisphere. I dont believe that to be true, or even possible with their trireme ships
Kharzette
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I don't believe it to be 100% true, but I do believe it is possible. That's kinda how we roll in this thread
My sources on this would be dubious if I could remember them. Probably dodgy youtube videos, but I remember it making good sense at the time. The purple people were big bronze traders, having good connections with tin sources in Cornwall.
The Phoenicians had writing, and I think I can remember items being found in the states inscribed with that alphabet, or maybe just religious symbols?
What would be absolute proof is if you could somehow trace the copper in bronze to where it was mined, but I think smelting erases all such traces.
Also keep in mind that surviving historians would have been incentivized to downplay any advancement or accomplishment the Phoenicians made. If you look into their religious practices, it isn't difficult to see why the romans wanted them erased from history.
My sources on this would be dubious if I could remember them. Probably dodgy youtube videos, but I remember it making good sense at the time. The purple people were big bronze traders, having good connections with tin sources in Cornwall.
The Phoenicians had writing, and I think I can remember items being found in the states inscribed with that alphabet, or maybe just religious symbols?
What would be absolute proof is if you could somehow trace the copper in bronze to where it was mined, but I think smelting erases all such traces.
Also keep in mind that surviving historians would have been incentivized to downplay any advancement or accomplishment the Phoenicians made. If you look into their religious practices, it isn't difficult to see why the romans wanted them erased from history.
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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I don't believe it to be 100% true, but I do believe it is possible. That's kinda how we roll in this thread
My sources on this would be dubious if I could remember them. Probably dodgy youtube videos, but I remember it making good sense at the time. The purple people were big bronze traders, having good connections with tin sources in Cornwall.
The Phoenicians had writing, and I think I can remember items being found in the states inscribed with that alphabet, or maybe just religious symbols?
What would be absolute proof is if you could somehow trace the copper in bronze to where it was mined, but I think smelting erases all such traces.
Also keep in mind that surviving historians would have been incentivized to downplay any advancement or accomplishment the Phoenicians made. If you look into their religious practices, it isn't difficult to see why the romans wanted them erased from history.
Child sacrifice is very en vogue these days, what do you mean?
Rajaah
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"Inexplicably"
So many places in the world have "lan" at the end of their name because it originally meant "land". Like as suffixes "ton" is "town" and "ham" is "hamlet"
Catalan/Cataluna/Catalunya/Catalonia has gone through a number of names.
It's really tiresome speculating on hints like this on the dominion of King Atlas (which would correspond to Atlantis' existence, if it actually existed) and having "nuh-uh" people being like "nuh-uh" at everything. The world also had edges in other directions (NW, SW, S, SE) and they weren't called Atlas or Atlantes.
We're talking about times so far back that none of us really know, given the imperfection of historians and the thousands and thousands of years of civilizational null between a flood / apocalyptic event 10k-14k years ago and the "cradle of civilization" era. It's pretty hard for any information to endure over that span of time in anything beyond, yes, how things are named.
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Chris
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Are the places with "Land" at the end all Germanic countries in Northern Europe? You are being a real dumbass here, why would a Latin country have "Land" in the name?
No idea why you are talking about the other edges of the world, the Greeks called specifically the far West "Atlantic" after the Atlas myths as it was the only "edge" of the world they had access to. Plato literally says that Atlantis was out past Gibraltar which puts it on the west coast of Spain/Morocco or an island further out like The Azores. It isn't a mystery where the location was or why the names all have "Atla(s)" in them.
Can you show literally any place that has the same name for 10k years, or a record of how the name changed? We have a lot of countries with 2k year old latin names, not sure there's anything older.
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Loser Araysar
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Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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It is probably doable. Oceanic migration occured with far less technology. But there appear to be no trace of anything in the local population, notably gene-wise, so they didn't put down a colony, like they used to, or it suffered the same fate as the viking's northern ones.
Loser Araysar
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Its doable in the sense that Kon-Tiki or RA 2 is doable. But the odds of making it to a New World on a Phoenician trireme would have been virtually imposible and almost certainly a suicide trip.
They were terrible in storms and capsized easily (they didnt have much of a keel), the crew was 150-200 rowers and a trireme couldnt carry that much food and water for a 2-3 month journey, etc.
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Kharzette
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I've thought about the outpost / settlement thing for the Phoenicians. I think they would need one, maybe on the Mississippi. The size would depend on if they are trading for ore, or trading for ingots.
The above is correct though, I don't think there's an ounce of semetic dna in the american natives, so if they were there they didn't mix.
The above is correct though, I don't think there's an ounce of semetic dna in the american natives, so if they were there they didn't mix.
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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It's certainly doable. Polynesians made it to Madagascar on outboard canoes like this. Indus Valley Civilization sailed on some kind of squat fat boats they sealed with tar from their region all the way to Mesopotamia. The tradition of making them survived until modern times. You can see it on Youtube. Confirmed by Indus Valley clay seals they found all over Uruk.
Rajaah
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Out past Gibraltar... like... Mauritania? Follow the coast out and you reach Morocco and then Mauritania. From their vantage point, Richat itself is "past Gibraltar"
Not even sure what point you're making at this point but it's too tiresome to care.
What? I'm not saying it's had the same name for 10k years, it's gone through enough shifts to make sense and Catalonia is pretty far from where it started. Atlas' Land -> ? -> ? -> Catalan -> Cataluna -> Catalonia. Lots of places went through similar name-shifts over time. We've got a few historical "dead spots" as well like the 650-950 AD area and the 10,000 BC to 6,000 BC area where legends and names endured despite that everything was wrecked at the time.
I haven't spent much time in Spain so I could be wrong here but what I gathered was that Catalonia is more the east coast of Spain, the Mediterranean edge, while the center/north areas were always Iberia and the west was Portugal. So from an ancient perspective, the lands of Atlas were the east edge of Spain, Gibraltar, Morocco, Mauritania. Anything you could access by boat if you sailed to the "west edge of the world" pretty much. I'm wondering why it was called that and whether this is connected to all those old trade route maps of the lush Sahara and whether Richat, being at the terminus point of the river, is indeed in the perfect spot for being what we know as "Atlantis". Everything else is just guesswork and conjecture but I feel like we could make a pretty strong case that Richat is tied into all of this. Only question is how old it is, 10k or way older.
You're arguing with me about things that can't really be argued about because they're theories and not bad ones. I'm like "notice how everything in the area of Richat seems to be named after Atlas or Atlantis, and it's all tied to the Mediterranean and the Gibraltar, pretty interesting" and you're like "lolol no you don't know that, lots of things are called those names, atlas means edge of the world, how did Richat have a lake or get flooded when it's 1600 feet in elevation, I've disproved everything" and you can't help yourself from going after any theory that's outside your little mental box. Like I don't think you're contributing anything here and while I've defended you a few times in the past to other people and while I enjoy debate when it has a point, you're pretty close to being the first person I've ever put on ignore.
Tiresome.
Rajaah
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Something else I hardly ever see anyone bring up is that during an ice age, a lot of new land bridges can form. Sea levels might drop and expose more area, smaller water bodies could freeze and become traversable, and so on. It's possible that ancient (like really ancient) peoples were able to spread around via ice age shenanigans without necessarily needing boat technology. Point is there were probably a lot more "zone connections" between ancient peoples than what we know for fact and it's probably why so many things unexplainably turn up in places they're "not supposed to" in archaeology. The world may well have been much more connected in 15k-10k BC than it even is today, I don't know.
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Rajaah
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Wouldn't surprise me if literally all human racial differences (and things like the Mike Brown thread) were simply because humans on some continents have had more time to evolve than others, or had more demanding environments that necessitated faster evolution.
For example, people in Norway or Switzerland would have needed to evolve quicker to adapt to their harsh environment, while people in equatorial regions might have just been able to lounge around picking fruit from trees in perpetuity in comparison.
Not necessarily saying that "homo erectus walks among us" and I don't like being a "racist" or whatever, but it does seem like there is a dramatic, >100k year evolutionary difference between some groups of humans. Thus why China and Japan are producing incredible numbers of engineers and building nanocomputers and robots while many equatorial region humans seem unable to feed or clothe themselves and just flat-out die off if no other groups are assisting them.
Chris
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You don't know what point I'm making because I think you've forgotten the things you posted that I replied to.
I wasn't disputing Richat fitting the general location, I replied to you saying a few times about the north/south/east not being called "Atlas".
I already asked you why Catalonia would use the germanic word "Land" when it's a Latin speaking area, you forgot that and just reposted your theory. Then you are confused about me wondering why you think the name is 10k years old, before claiming two more times that it's 10k years old.
Also Catalonia being on the EAST coast of Spain on the Mediterranean doesn't fit Plato saying that Atlantis was on the WEST side of Gibraltar on the Atlantic. Portugal fits better. So this whole train of thought is widly inconsistent.
How can it be that your "guesswork and conjecture" presents a "strong case" when my poitning out hard facts about elevation and language groups is "arguing about things that can't be argued about"?
You are the one making claims here, you can't make claims about 10k years ago then simultaneously say that sceptics can't debunk it because we don't know anything about 10k years ago.
Take a step back and realise that ARAYSAR is backing me up when we have spent two years arguing about Russia/Ukraine and him trolling me all over the Poltics section.
Chukzombi
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my theory is different human races developed in different parts of the world and sure as fuck didnt all originate from Africa. maybe they intebred and got a bit of a jump start, but they started somewhere else.