Ashes of Creation

Look I agree with a lot of that, but you're not going to change the majority of people who want loot and don't want to lose it nor will most of these items keep and potentially grow a sizeable population. It's just what it is.

They have the time, talent and financials to make both PVE and PVP work together instead of one being an afterthought or thrown together in last ditch effort like the majority of games when they realized it's tanking. If it turned into a true WoW 2.0 that's a better option than it becoming AO/SB/WO/MO/DF/AO#2/CF + a slew of other Asian PVPMMOs and probably a dozen more games I'm forgetting that already turned off the lights or are close to it.

Sylas said:

asdf

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I find it hard to believe that Sharif wouldnt at least be expecting a return of, at minimum, what he put into this passion project of his. In my line of work, the guys with hundreds of properties (several million dollars) are tightwads and Im grateful to have their accounts under my umbrella, but they are cut throat with any expenditures. To the point I have to revisit legal codes from time to time. My point is that I believe Sharif is going to push the idea of PVX with his game as far as he can and shore up any shortcomings that the Lineage 2 system had so he can retain as many players as he can (obvious, right?). I played the shit out of Lineage 2 and I honestly didnt think it was that bad. So if hes going to cripple someone thats an obvious toxic PVP'er, Im completely fine with it cause it makes sense.

As far as owning a home in the game, he already said he anticipates that most players will just have an apartment. But if the town does delevel from tier 3, that the player will retain the cost, layout and any items associated with the house, and they will be saved to the player-account. It doesnt sound like owning a House will be a cheap endeavor, or one that everyone can partake in (ex. FFXIV) - so Im sure a player will be well aware of the stability of the town.

Im just of the opinion that past the surface layer, AOC is going to be vastly different than the games Sharif based his creation off of (AA, L2, Etc.)

Daidraco said:

I find it hard to believe that Sharif wouldnt at least be expecting a return of, at minimum, what he put into this passion project of his.

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You'd be surprised

Sylas said:

Right on, more power to you for wanting to get back on that same horse. Just don't be surprised if it turns out exactly like this:

Edit: the point I'm trying and apparently failing to explain, is all of these games take a pve game, build them up with quests and levels and raids and shit, and then attempt to insert pvp in to them. And every single time "Oh it'll be different this time because of x".

It won't. Our lizard brains won't let it. Its the way we assign value to things that we struggled for, especially with the way mmos design their rewards.

If you want a pvp game you have to design a pvp game, and then add on pve elements to it afterwards, but they cant be your typical "grind/quest/raid for x hours for y" type of pve.

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You'll be served a pvp game and be fucking happy with it, god damn.

Sylas said:

If you want a pvp game you have to design a pvp game, and then add on pve elements to it afterwards, but they cant be your typical "grind/quest/raid for x hours for y" type of pve.

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The bad thing about this is balancing. Where does gear come from? Pvp, conquering, Pve? Crafting? Players will take the easiest route possible. It's not an easy thing to do and players will whine no matter what you choose. Do you normalize gear? So many ways to do it, and all of them alienate a certain crowd.

In the end, they can't possibly be aiming for high numbers in the medium to long term. A pvp game with item loss just will not do it. They have to be happy with Niche, say ~500k(+/- 100k) and live with that. Unless they turn it in into a theme park that attracts the masses somehow. Otherwise the type of game they are making just doesn't garner the attention span long. Huge spike at start, but once the pvp kicks in after everyone is done leveling, the masses start leaving. Even faster if there is item loss or P2win. If they are actually happy with a nice title, then great. Games like EVE did it for a long time. History though, shows bean counters always want more and is what usually dooms a lot of games. No one is happy anymore with 500k subs, they all want WoW prime numbers.

It was the sbe.exe, the hacking, and 3am banes that killed early Shadowbane though it did have a resurgence once the lore servers came out. It wasn't hard to rebuild or take refuge in an allied cities or regear in Shadowbane. AoC will have a prime time node siege window only, declaring a siege will come at a heavy price and resource sink, and defenders will have an advantage. Depending on the level of the city node there will be a good rest period between siege declarations it can receive after a successful defense.

The majority of mmo players just hate pvp. And it doesn't matter what their reasons are, if they get griefed just once, then most of them will leave and take their money with them.

If you want carebear money, you have to have carebear safe spaces.

Barab said:

It was the sbe.exe, the hacking, and 3am banes that killed early Shadowbane though it did have a resurgence once the lore servers came out. It wasn't hard to rebuild or take refuge in an allied cities or regear in Shadowbane. AoC will have a prime time node siege window only, declaring a siege will come at a heavy price and resource sink, and defenders will have an advantage. Depending on the level of the city node there will be a good rest period between siege declarations it can receive after a successful defense.

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Not every node is going to be a siege node to capture them. Some will be a PVP tournament, some will be voting, some might be other methods.

Also what determines if a node does up or down a rank isn't necessarily a siege but may revolve around trading/economics, crafting, population, and likely other factors too from what I understand.

As I understand it like AA there will be safe non pvp areas in the game for people to operate out of as well, its just the highest value items or best return on time investment will likely be in the highest risk areas.

All I know is if I play the game, go to mine some ore, and some cockbag standing on top of a 50 foot tall rock 2 shots me with a bow and I have no counter and they loot my shit, I'm done lol

Dont you just lose a percentage of the trade items on death? Unless you're corrupted, and then you have a chance to drop gear?

Daidraco said:

Dont you just lose a percentage of the trade items on death? Unless you're corrupted, and then you have a chance to drop gear?

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Yeah they can flag up and get a percentage of your trade items like ore or lumber.

If you don't fight back they go red though and take penalties to their combat effectiveness, which gets worse and worse the more they PK, they also can drop equipped gear, plus have limited trading options and cannot store loot in containers/banks until the corruption wears off.

I'm not sure how effective naked mages will be, because there is always that - its been around since EQ but it's all going to be tested out in the alpha 2 and betas.

I expect the only real place your going to see deep red players is the open seas running smaller pirate vessels and the smaller lawless islands around them.

Going deep red on the 2 main continents where the majority of the nodes are is probably a recipe to get your ass handed to you.

Harkon said:

Yeah they can flag up and get a percentage of your trade items like ore or lumber.

If you don't fight back they go red though and take penalties to their combat effectiveness, which gets worse and worse the more they PK, they also can drop equipped gear, plus have limited trading options and cannot store loot in containers/banks until the corruption wears off.

I'm not sure how effective naked mages will be, because there is always that - its been around since Ultima Online but it's all going to be tested out in the alpha 2 and betas.

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Made a slight correction for you.

Harkon said:

Yeah they can flag up and get a percentage of your trade items like ore or lumber.

If you don't fight back they go red though and take penalties to their combat effectiveness, which gets worse and worse the more they PK, they also can drop equipped gear, plus have limited trading options and cannot store loot in containers/banks until the corruption wears off.

I'm not sure how effective naked mages will be, because there is always that - its been around since EQ but it's all going to be tested out in the alpha 2 and betas.

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Even if they fight back, you'll still get corruption for going purple and killing someone.

Mahes said:

Made a slight correction for you.

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Thats true, it's been so long but I do remember the Corp Por spam.

I just subjected myself so much when I played on Rallos Zek it blanked out my previous memories lol.

Sylas said:

Yeah they totally got it figured out this time. They certainly cracked the code...it'll be different this time cus of _____.

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Fair enough, it's damn difficult. Lets see how the betas play out.

I do think there is a good balance that can incorporate pve and pvp into the same world but we have yet to see it, I think ArchAge was a really close attempt save for all the PTW, and the MASSIVE effectiveness disparities if you didn't PTW.

One thing I felt Archeage did right for the land was peace times, so in the better zones with better drops every so often the zone would go into peace time for 2 hours and there was no PVP. It rotated between all the zones so PvEer could do their shit if they time their zones right without any interference (from PvP).

But hey maybe im just hoping for a better communism but I dont think it's as bad as that.

I will try most anything once. If I don't like it, I move on. Too many gaming options these days to play something you are not having fun with. Everything else is up to them.

Cinge said:

I will try most anything once. If I don't like it, I move on. Too many gaming options these days to play something you are not having fun with. Everything else is up to them.

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Yea I agree, this MMO will die a quick death if they dont have a good path for PvE players to take that offers meaningful advancement without needing to go into PvP areas IMO. And this is as a hardcore PvPer in all MMO's.

I honestly feel that the only open PvP areas should be the intercontinental areas (like the open seas), im going to play the betas and 100% provide feedback to them.

(This will make cross intercontinental trade routes extremely lucrative and venerable to pirates as well meaning that you can try and take the risk and go it alone or get a fleet together to do a bunch at once)

But if you dont do intercontential travel you can still make good coin between contential cities, get great resources ect.

(frankly if I was making this MMO, id have 3 huge continents with a pirate island in the middle, with large seas between. NO PVP on any solo continents with *maybe an exeption for faction or guild warfare* but if you wanted to make the most money you would need to trade between a different Continent... thats where the big money comes from; but... because the ocean is so large you could easily try and cross it yourself.)