Bioshock Infinite

Sumdain x

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I don't think this is really a spoiler.

But I am kindof shocked thinking about, and going back through all the old media. So much of that is not in the game at all. Its kindof remarkable how many scenarios, etc they made just for promo.

yea after watching that again it seemed like a completely different dynamic than the finished product. i don't think we even ran across general saltstallone in the game. I really enjoyed bioshock infinite (i generally just play games for storylines and couldn't care less about achievements) especially the ending but i think i would have preferred the above video to what we got. still give the game a 9/10 just for the story and scenery though!
 

Dandai

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That gameplay video is from 2010, when they were planning on releasing in 2011. Since you already finished the game, I'm sure you recognize a lot those moments from the finished product, but not necessarily all occurring like that. There was obviously some major rewrites in the plot/timeline since that demo was made.

Maybe I'm naive, but I always attributed the delays to Infinite on making the game the tightest, most awesome experience possible, not dissension among the ranks or people leaving out of protest as many wanted to believe (or was rumored to have happened in the gaming media). I've watched more interviews with Ken Levine than I should probably admit to. I can tell the dude has a real passion for wanting to elevate games and storytelling through games to blockbuster Hollywood levels instead of the typical bland, mediocrity that we get with the vast majority of shit that releases as "AAA" these days.
 

Caliane

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yeah. first, there are many old vids. over time. really recommend go looking at them. Remember the scene of her in the shop with the head? Its remarkable how much was changed.

And yeah, one of the early holy shit, moments was the seemingly HUGE open world environments as suggested by the skylines. If we could go back and look at the FoH thread, much ado was made about that, and how it would even be possible. Turns out, its not. haha.

Heres 2011 E3.



This one has a few things that are in, but different. the songbird scene was outside, and you had control. I think this implies that at one point the song bird was more like big sister/nemesis. he would periodically appear. as opposed to the final, where it was what 3 times? per-scripted. Oh, look comstock house. also same, but again, outside. comstock also was very different. I would also think that without the beard, the booker=comstock reveal is not possible. so that was added later in the game, and not originally intended.
the game was intended to be far more open world I think. Limits of consoles must have forced them to rail it in, and rework a ton of the game to make it function. killing much of the outdoors railway gameplay.
 

Dandai

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Lots of stuff changed and you can see it in the first minute of that video. The UI has a new bar at the top (shield maybe?), when he picks up the Bucking Bronco it seemingly adds a charge of to his available Bucking Broncos (12). If I had to guess, they did away with the heavily scripted stuff like this because players felt like they had to do it or some players skipped it entirely.

There was an interview posted not long ago with the Elizabeth team + Levine where they showed the scene where all the citizens are looking up at the destroyed statue. They said that they originally had Booker look up at it but they hated taking away control so they just had all the NPCs in the area looking at it and reacting. During play testingsomeplayers just blew right through it and didn't even bother to look at what everyone else was looking at. Levine said it breaks their heart when they see players not appreciating the stuff they put in the game like that, but at the end of the day he wants people to enjoy his games the way that they would most enjoy it and not force them to play the wayhewants them to play. I found it all to be very insightful and instructive.
 

Sean_sl

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the game was intended to be far more open world I think. Limits of consoles must have forced them to rail it in, and rework a ton of the game to make it function. killing much of the outdoors railway gameplay.
Definitely. Current consoles super limit environment size and density so much. I really can't wait to see what these guys can pull off while not being constrained so much by hardware with the next generation.
 

Zaphid

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10/10. Ending made my brain explode, thank god I'm not as perceptive as some of you, so I didn't ruin it for myself
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If this was called Half life 3, I would be content. Elizabeth is the best NPC in a game, Alyx doesn't compete.

If I had to nitpick, the weapons and vigors seemed rather weak, with the obvious exception of the sniper rifle, but that might be because I played on hard.

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Caliane

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I used the carbine 99% of the game. thought the sniper rifle was too slow. while the carbine did a ton of damage. and had long range accuracy too.

And possession/shock mostly. Possession is so brutal. A bit surprised the suicides were left in.
 

Dandai

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Was it ever mentioned that you could combine vigor effects in the game? When I beat it I started looking through the achievements and noticed there was a cheeve for using all 8 vigor combinations. I never used half the vigors after first getting them (undertow, the bullet shield one, ravens). After I bought the 50% salt reduction on possession it was pretty much my staple vigor.
 

Zaphid

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I used the carbine 99% of the game. thought the sniper rifle was too slow. while the carbine did a ton of damage. and had long range accuracy too.

And possession/shock mostly. Possession is so brutal. A bit surprised the suicides were left in.
Sniper is the most cost-effective weapon in the game, since it's pretty much one shot one dead for most of the people here, especially on PC. The rest of the weapons you are happy to kill like 5-10 with full ammo.
 

Sutekh

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yeah. that date is the date it always is, in the "head private eye room".
some of the timeline/2 universes thing doesn't add up 100%. Booker in game, says the baptism took place 20 years ago. And then after giving up Anna, wasted 20 years drinking, before being taken to columbia.
1875 born. Wounded knee was 1890. Anna was born 1892. 1893 anna was sold. so, when exactly did the baptism take place? before or after anna?

If before, then the timeline splits there. in one, he is reborn. Finds religion, becomes a fanatic, racist, etc, and meets Letuce. Within 3 years mind you.( a point of contention. he does appear to be about 40, when we see him and Letuce taking the child.) Using the machine, leaves him impotent. But peering into the portals of alternate timelines, he sees he needs a child. And sees an alternate version of himself who does have a child. and decides to take her. So in the end, what happens is, you go back to the baptism, every reality that has been spawned from that baptism, will not occur, if it never happens. So they drown Booker before he can be born again. The problem now is, well if booker died before being baptized, then how can that post credit scene occur?

if after, then the baptism is a reaction to both wounded knee AND giving up Anna. Its now 1893. columbia is forming, and comstock already exists. For this, we should probably consider a circular timeline. And possibly two baptisms. Simply, Booker lived through the game, but instead of drowning, choose to be reborn, and wash away his sins. in previous realties. So you have a primer situation. born in 1875. gave up anna in 1893, drank for 20 years. was taken to columbia via the twins. killed comstock. Choose to go back in time, to the baptism in 1890. now is 40ish, and has knowledge of the future. (problem. this booker would know full well what is going on. and not be delusional about prophecy, archangels, know he cant have kids, not be surprised about having to kill lady comstock, etc..) steal his own kid, and so on.
Now, in the end, booker at the nexus, would be both at the same time.

Much of the rules of alt realities get fudged here and there. if entering a new reality you "merge" with your other self, and get their memories, etc. as seen by Lin, the dead police, etc. then how is there booker and comstock? how is there male and female Letuce? How is there a revolutionary Booker and comstock in that other reality? that booker lived there. and when our booker travels to that reality his mind merges with revolutionary booker. that kindof directly flys in the face of booker=comstock.


I hope the DLC is just vignette after vignette of Booker dying, and the lutece's twins reseting him, and changing minor variables.



vigors probably should have gotten a bit more discussion admittedly. All this to do about Liz's tears... meanwhile they are just GIVING away, tonics that let you mind control people, making them murder their friends, and then inducing them to commit suicide.. it is a weird disconnect there. especially as no one else is using them. Save slate and shock jockey. If everyone did use them, ok. no explanation really needed. Or if they were, pulled back, and presented as something not available to anyone else. Aka, the shield the twins give you. ok.
I think the timeline is rather clear when you think about it. 1874 Booker is born -- 1890 Wounded Knee happens -- after wounded knee Booker goes to the baptismal place and this where the split happens. On one hand you have booker taking the baptism and being reborn as Zachary Comstock (Timeline A), changing his life around, meeting Lutece, discovering the tear/levitating technology and making Columbia, the timeline to create Columbia is obfuscated and that's clearly due to the rift and inter-dimension travel as you can see how old Comstock is when the city is found (from all the statues) and we know his increased aging and INFERTILITY is from excessive use of tears.
On the other hand you have Booker Dewitt (Timeline B) who refused the baptism went on to work for the Pinkertons and be drownd in his sorrow of what he did at Wounded Knee. 1893 Anna is born presumably to some woman who may have died in birth or left him in three years of depression he's drank and gambled himself in to a massive amount of debt and as a 19 year old kid doesn't think through the consequences of his actions. Comstock from Timeline A comes across Booker from Timeline B, realizes he has a kid and sends Lutece to offer up the deal, give him the girl, wipe away your debt. He agrees, regrets it, tries to take Anna back, she loses her pinky in the process. From this point on Booker is "hold up" in his office for 20 years until eventually the Lutece twins come and visit him and bring him to Timeline A in-order to start the endless cycle that they've done an 'infinite' amount of times. The battle of Booker Dewitt v Songbird/Comstock.

I don't think they mentioned at all that you merge with yourself in an alternate reality it looks like you attempt to retain some of the memories ("The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist...") of that reality however they may be fuzzy if a traumatic instance has happened. Like being killed. Also the cops, vox, lin, etc. that are basically shells of people standing there weren't merged with their alternate universe selves. They were killed in the other universe and that somehow played a role on their being in that universe. This is why you have constant flash backs of the bleeding nose, the black and white grainyness. Booker dies in all these other universes that could presumably be happening at the same time or happening in some completely different time.
 

xzi

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I wouldn't be surprised if some of that early gameplay made it into DLC. Of course, with much more polish. I'll probably actually buy DLC for once because I want more.

There was something really great about the railways.. I did it so much and never got bored of them, it was somewhat fulfilling me of these crazy action heroes I used to idolize as a kid as I'm flying around on the rails shootings goddamn guns and dropkicking people in the face. I guess they could have really overdone it but it was perfect.. for now.
 

Caliane

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I think the timeline is rather clear when you think about it. 1874 Booker is born -- 1890 Wounded Knee happens -- after wounded knee Booker goes to the baptismal place and this where the split happens. On one hand you have booker taking the baptism and being reborn as Zachary Comstock (Timeline A), changing his life around, meeting Lutece, discovering the tear/levitating technology and making Columbia, the timeline to create Columbia is obfuscated and that's clearly due to the rift and inter-dimension travel as you can see how old Comstock is when the city is found (from all the statues) and we know his increased aging and INFERTILITY is from excessive use of tears.
On the other hand you have Booker Dewitt (Timeline B) who refused the baptism went on to work for the Pinkertons and be drownd in his sorrow of what he did at Wounded Knee. 1893 Anna is born presumably to some woman who may have died in birth or left him in three years of depression he's drank and gambled himself in to a massive amount of debt and as a 19 year old kid doesn't think through the consequences of his actions. Comstock from Timeline A comes across Booker from Timeline B, realizes he has a kid and sends Lutece to offer up the deal, give him the girl, wipe away your debt. He agrees, regrets it, tries to take Anna back, she loses her pinky in the process. From this point on Booker is "hold up" in his office for 20 years until eventually the Lutece twins come and visit him and bring him to Timeline A in-order to start the endless cycle that they've done an 'infinite' amount of times. The battle of Booker Dewitt v Songbird/Comstock.

I don't think they mentioned at all that you merge with yourself in an alternate reality it looks like you attempt to retain some of the memories ("The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist...") of that reality however they may be fuzzy if a traumatic instance has happened. Like being killed. Also the cops, vox, lin, etc. that are basically shells of people standing there weren't merged with their alternate universe selves. They were killed in the other universe and that somehow played a role on their being in that universe. This is why you have constant flash backs of the bleeding nose, the black and white grainyness. Booker dies in all these other universes that could presumably be happening at the same time or happening in some completely different time.
yeah. Booker SAYS his wife died in childbirth, in the ice cream shop scene. and when Eliz, asks if hes a father, or has a kid. he says no. But at the same time... his memories are made up... so that might not be 100% true.
yes, most of the game implies that rundown. the Lutece's audiologs. etc. the problems are. 3 years from wounded knee to kidnapping Anna. Reborn, become a super racist, find Lutece. Start using tears, and age 20 years in 2? It really feels like something is missing there. would not be surprised if DLC adds to this. Maybe he entered a tear and spent 20 years someplace else? 1983 maybe? Having spent 20 years in an alt timeline, caused the aging, and is where the infertility came from. He has specific foreknowledge of his own future. Who is the archangel? He knows Booker is going to kill him on the airship. how does looking at alt timelines, give you specific knowledge of your own future? it should only give you possibilities. Neither Elizabeth or the Luteces answer this or the archangel question. I think there is more here.
The after credits scene fucks things up. It seemingly undoes the narrative. The only other thing is, female Lutece thinks putting Elizabeth back won't solve anything. Trying to plug the ocean. So is the end scene showing she was right? Nothing changed?
 

Zaphid

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Also I should point out how my jaw dropped when I realized why it's not called Bioshock 3 but Bioshock Infinite...

Really, this might be one of the first stories in videogames that deal successfully with time travelling and parallel universes. The only thing I kinda missed was songbird - was it a person ? How was it tied specifically to Elizabeth ? Also her mother was a royal pain in the ass.

Also - MASSIVE SPOILERS WITH THE STORY IN HANDY DIAGRAM:http://i.imgur.com/xmUAykJ.jpg
 

Sutekh

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yeah. Booker SAYS his wife died in childbirth, in the ice cream shop scene. and when Eliz, asks if hes a father, or has a kid. he says no. But at the same time... his memories are made up... so that might not be 100% true.
yes, most of the game implies that rundown. the Lutece's audiologs. etc. the problems are. 3 years from wounded knee to kidnapping Anna. Reborn, become a super racist, find Lutece. Start using tears, and age 20 years in 2? It really feels like something is missing there. would not be surprised if DLC adds to this. Maybe he entered a tear and spent 20 years someplace else? 1983 maybe? Having spent 20 years in an alt timeline, caused the aging, and is where the infertility came from. He has specific foreknowledge of his own future. Who is the archangel? He knows Booker is going to kill him on the airship. how does looking at alt timelines, give you specific knowledge of your own future? it should only give you possibilities. Neither Elizabeth or the Luteces answer this or the archangel question. I think there is more here.
The after credits scene fucks things up. It seemingly undoes the narrative. The only other thing is, female Lutece thinks putting Elizabeth back won't solve anything. Trying to plug the ocean. So is the end scene showing she was right? Nothing changed?
He's no longer a father because he gave his daughter away, he doesn't know that Elizabeth is actually his daughter, what he knows is that he's trying to : "Bring us the girl, wipe away the debt." This is all he remembers because he was pulled from his timeline in to the alternate one. Also your timeline is a bit fuzzy here. It was Wounded Knee --> Reborn --> Finds Lutece/Tear technology --> Builds Columbia --> Makes a deal with Booker for Anna. He didn't spend 20 years in an alternate time line, which caused the aging, his increased aging was a side effect of continually jumping multiple universes, this is why he could "predict" the future (it's even stated he can't predict the future, just see what could possibly happen), he was able to go to multiple different universes and see what happened in them and make an educated guess. Lutece comes to BOOKER after 20 years, that is why Anna has aged to a full woman and when she asks Booker how old he is he said "40 something". The after credits scene wrapped everything up. He killed himself at the baptism (in that timeline), therein killing Booker Dewitt AND Zachary Comstock, what is left is a completely different version of the two men that took a third path, one of raise and love his child.

Also I should point out how my jaw dropped when I realized why it's not called Bioshock 3 but Bioshock Infinite...

Really, this might be one of the first stories in videogames that deal successfully with time travelling and parallel universes. The only thing I kinda missed was songbird - was it a person ? How was it tied specifically to Elizabeth ? Also her mother was a royal pain in the ass.
I'm not entirely sure about the symbolism of Songbird. It looked like when they were looking at the diagram of Songbird given to them by the Lutece twins that it had Comstocks face in a mechanical version.
 

Caliane

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Also I should point out how my jaw dropped when I realized why it's not called Bioshock 3 but Bioshock Infinite...

Really, this might be one of the first stories in videogames that deal successfully with time travelling and parallel universes. The only thing I kinda missed was songbird - was it a person ? How was it tied specifically to Elizabeth ? Also her mother was a royal pain in the ass.

Also - MASSIVE SPOILERS WITH THE STORY IN HANDY DIAGRAM:http://i.imgur.com/xmUAykJ.jpg
diagram isn't 100% accurate.. more like timeline c, d, and e by the end.
A and B at the start correct. Booker is taken to timeline A. but, we enter timeline C, when Mr. Lin dies. C is almost exactly like A. however in timeline C, Mr. Lin married a white women, and gained some political power from her brother in law being in office. We then move to get his weapons/machines back. we can't transport them, so we move to Timeline D. here shit has gone down. the Lins are dead. Many changes in timeline D. This timelines booker is a revolutionary Martyr. (this is part of my problem. The Letuce's didn't bring this booker here. so how is there a Martyr booker and a comstock here? thanks to Bookers previous actions. the Vox have become much stronger, and more militant. This Daisy is very aggressive, and turns on you when she sees you are not her booker. you then move on in this timeline till the Songbird. And Elizabeth brings him back. its possible you go back to timeline A after future liz sends you back. but how young liz got back to timeline A after the songbird took her is then not stated.

Songbird was never extrapolated on. we could guess songbird and handymen were build using Raptures big daddy tech, and spying on them. same as vigors. The personal connection, though. Again, more to the story very likely. Who is to say Comstock didn't use the portals to steal her real mom, or Booker himself from other alt timelines, to make Songbird?

I'm sure there have been many games. prince of persia did a fine job.
 

Sutekh

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diagram isn't 100% accurate.. more like timeline c, d, and e by the end.
A and B at the start correct. Booker is taken to timeline A. but, we enter timeline C, when Mr. Lin dies. C is almost exactly like A. however in timeline C, Mr. Lin married a white women, and gained some political power from her brother in law being in office. We then move to get his weapons/machines back. we can't transport them, so we move to Timeline D. here shit has gone down. the Lins are dead. Many changes in timeline D. This timelines booker is a revolutionary Martyr. (this is part of my problem. The Letuce's didn't bring this booker here. so how is there a Martyr booker and a comstock here? thanks to Bookers previous actions. the Vox have become much stronger, and more militant. This Daisy is very aggressive, and turns on you when she sees you are not her booker. you then move on in this timeline till the Songbird. And Elizabeth brings him back. its possible you go back to timeline A after future liz sends you back. but how young liz got back to timeline A after the songbird took her is then not stated.

Songbird was never extrapolated on. we could guess songbird and handymen were build using Raptures big daddy tech, and spying on them. same as vigors. The personal connection, though. Again, more to the story very likely. Who is to say Comstock didn't use the portals to steal her real mom, or Booker himself from other alt timelines, to make Songbird?

I'm sure there have been many games. prince of persia did a fine job.
The Luteces brought EVERY Booker there. Timeline C and Timeline D are just different outcomes of what the different Bookers choices. It all starts the same way, the Luteces rowing you to the light house ("How come he doesn't row? He never rows"), you're baptised, you go to Columbia, the Luteces flip a coin and you call it, they mark it on the chart where there's thousands of marks. This has happened an INFINITE amount of times. That's why the games name is Bioshock Infinite
 

Fight

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God, I need to finish this asap, so I can come back and read all the spoilers. I am fucking loving this game so far.

My only complaint is breaking up the pacing of the game because I need to go into this side room check crates and desk drawers for loot. Such a focus on looting and inventory management is something I could really do without in the Bioshock world.
 

Caliane

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The Luteces brought EVERY Booker there. Timeline C and Timeline D are just different outcomes of what the different Bookers choices. It all starts the same way, the Luteces rowing you to the light house ("How come he doesn't row? He never rows"), you're baptised, you go to Columbia, the Luteces flip a coin and you call it, they mark it on the chart where there's thousands of marks. This has happened an INFINITE amount of times. That's why the games name is Bioshock Infinite
well 122 times at least. thats how many counters there are on the chalkboard. is it a coincidence the combination is 122 on the light house? dunno.

here is the timeline on neogaf, which I agree with.
http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimel19ine.png

on the airship we see the Lutece's? have mapped the timeline too. Showing cutoffs.


why does Booker get the vision of new york burning?