Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
LachiusTZ

LachiusTZ

Rogue Deathwalker Box
<Silver Donator>
14,472
27,162
Flobee said:
?


I don't really need to repeat myself beyond that. You can invest your money however you want but I am very confident that ETH is a centralized project that is literally creating (admittedly cool) financial toys. Bitcoin is the ONLY decentralized crypto asset. Its monetary policy removes all requirement for these complex financial instruments that everyone wants to recreate.

Guess what? If you do money right you don't need that garbage. If you think Bitcoin is "outdated" you legitimately have no clue what you're talking about. That being said, by all means buy what you want. There is a sucker in every trade.
Click to expand...

Ultimately, this boils down to a philosophical question: exactly how much does decentralization mean to us, and how much are we willing to pay for it? Remember that centralized databases, and even quasi-centralized ones based on Ripple consensus, are free. If perfect decentralization is indeed worth $100 billion, then proof of work is definitely the right way to go. But arguably that is not the case. What if society does not see decentralization as a goal in itself, and the only reason why it’s worth it to decentralize is to get the increased benefits of efficiency that decentralization brings? In that case, if decentralization comes with a $100 billion price tag, then we should just centralize and let a few governments run the databases. But if we have a solid, viable proof of stake algorithm, then we have a third option: a system which is both decentralized and cost-free (note that useful proof of work also fits this criterion, and may be easier); in that case, the dichotomy does not exist at all and decentralization becomes the obvious choice.
 
Tmac

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,978
17,015
Arden said:
First market is a huge advantage typically. That's why those who aren't crypto-literate use "Bitcoin" as a synonym with "crypto", just like plenty of people still call any soda a "coke" or any copy from a copier a "Xerox."

That said, in the tech world first to market doesn't mean nearly as much as in trad markets. MySpace was first but Facebook won out. Yahoo was first but Google won out.
Click to expand...

I disagree. MySpace didn’t have a business model. Napster didn’t have a business model. The problem was that tech and the user base wasn’t caught up to the product. And neither of those things were a business. They were products.

If you talk to Tom (MySpace) he did what he set out to do. Zuckerberg’s Facebook is a different beast. In a way, comparing the two is like comparing a backyard chicken coop to Tyson.
 
James

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,804
7,056
Bitcoin doesn't have a product, there are virtually zero Bitcoin strategies in the decentralized finance space. It does what it set out to do (provide secure, peer to peer payments), and Ethereum is a whole different beast which will eat that up.
 
T

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
James said:
Yeah that's breaking the ATH this year, in case that isn't absolutely crystal clear by the chart. Do you not understand that Ethereum is literally the future of cryptocurrencies, that the entire cryptocurrency sector will revolve around scaling Ethereum, and that Bitcoin is now old and insufficient? You're going to lose a lot more money.
Click to expand...
2017 was a huge bull cycle. June 2017 was the middle of that cycle and major alt season. Alts were up massively across the board then, not just ETH. That's why the alts I bought then were such bad trades, even while the coins were good. (Sia was one; although I bought most before June) What happened after that was BTC got a protocol upgrade in September? and rallied hard unto December, leaving alts in the dust until Dec/Jan when they rebounded somewhat before tanking again.

We're in the middle of a bull cycle and BTC is about to get a protocol upgrade for the first time since Segwit. I'm comfortable with where my money is.

I heard an interview two days ago with Jimmy Song. He's a well-known bitcoin programmer; writes books about it; teaches people to to code BTC apps. Listen to this 10 minute clip of the interview (although the entire thing is great) if you want a perspective from an actual coder who lives eats and breathes blockchains instead of the usual evangelist who just hypes up his favorite coin because he's invested in it:

 
  • 1Solidarity
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 users
Flobee

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,674
3,072
LachiusTZ said:
Ultimately, this boils down to a philosophical question: exactly how much does decentralization mean to us, and how much are we willing to pay for it? Remember that centralized databases, and even quasi-centralized ones based on Ripple consensus, are free. If perfect decentralization is indeed worth $100 billion, then proof of work is definitely the right way to go. But arguably that is not the case. What if society does not see decentralization as a goal in itself, and the only reason why it’s worth it to decentralize is to get the increased benefits of efficiency that decentralization brings? In that case, if decentralization comes with a $100 billion price tag, then we should just centralize and let a few governments run the databases. But if we have a solid, viable proof of stake algorithm, then we have a third option: a system which is both decentralized and cost-free (note that useful proof of work also fits this criterion, and may be easier); in that case, the dichotomy does not exist at all and decentralization becomes the obvious choice.
Click to expand...
Valid point. I believe that the entire purpose behind the birth of this industry (that is Bitcoin's creation) was to create decentralized censorship proof money. Read the whitepaper and/or the genesis block. Satoshi is very specific about his intent. If the monetary policy is controlled by a centralized entity it will be abused, history has shown this repeatedly. I would argue that decentralization is the most important aspect of Bitcoin.

If its not decentralized, why not just use Fedcoin? You seem more willing to trust government than I am. Remember 2008? The 2020 election? COVID lockdowns? Fuck these people, they can't be trusted. Bitcoin fixes this.

No other coin can touch Bitcoin's use case. They may succeed, but they can't do what Bitcoin did simply because it was the first and it was designed from the ground up to replace our current monetary system. Bitcoin is currently the most pristine collateral and store of value that exists. Layer 2 tech has already proven that peer-to-peer transfers are possible for free (See Strike) or nearly free. Its network effect already has it miles ahead of everything else, even ETH with its shill armies.

I've gone over all of this in this very thread already. Whether you agree or not, it's coming.
 
Arden

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,732
2,055
Tmac said:
I disagree. MySpace didn’t have a business model. Napster didn’t have a business model. The problem was that tech and the user base wasn’t caught up to the product. And neither of those things were a business. They were products.

If you talk to Tom (MySpace) he did what he set out to do. Zuckerberg’s Facebook is a different beast. In a way, comparing the two is like comparing a backyard chicken coop to Tyson.
Click to expand...

They were products that needed to be turned into a business for long-term relevance. Facebook succeeded, MySpace didn't.

I could say the same thing about comparing ethereum and Bitcoin that you are saying about comparing Facebook in MySpace btw. You're pretty much proving my point.
 
Flobee

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,674
3,072
Arden said:
They were products that needed to be turned into a business for long-term relevance. Facebook succeeded, MySpace didn't.

I could say the same thing about comparing ethereum and Bitcoin that you are saying about comparing Facebook in MySpace btw. You're pretty much proving my point.
Click to expand...
Money != business
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user
Arden

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,732
2,055
Flobee said:
Money != business
Click to expand...
No, I agree, but I think BTC and ETH are both something beyond "money"- especially ETH.

Plus, unlike MySpace, I don't think BTC is going anywhere. I just think ETH will prevail as the "top dog" transactional crypto. As has been stated, it's pretty clear a multi-crypto paradigm is in our future, and both ETH and BTC will definitely factor into that future.
 
James

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,804
7,056
Flobee said:
No other coin can touch Bitcoin's use case.
Click to expand...

This is so fucking dumb, though. Obviously Ethereum can touch Bitcoin's use case, and in fact is already superseding it. Look, here's Bitcoin's use case as described in the whitepaper itself:

A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending. We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network. The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers. The network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone.
Click to expand...

The only reason you think Ethereum doesn't do this already is because you do not understand it whatsoever. I don't know what possible research you could have done to come to the conclusion that Ethereum is centralized in any manner, because it's so far beyond the pale that the only thing left is to call it out for its complete stupidity. You're sitting here telling me that the decentralized finance markets already operating on Ethereum are somehow less secure than the imaginary decentralized finance powered by Bitcoin. Not gonna cut it.
 
James

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,804
7,056
You mine Ethereum with GPUs, not ASICs, and it's really not feasible to set up a mining rig now and pay it off before the PoS switch. You can mine some with your home GPU at ethermine.org, but it's almost nothing.

EDIT: I looked back in January of this year and found that what I mined on my home computer in 2016 would cost around $50,000 and a year to mine at this rate, and it's only gotten a lot worse since then.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions: 2 users
Tmac

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,978
17,015
Arden said:
They were products that needed to be turned into a business for long-term relevance. Facebook succeeded, MySpace didn't.

I could say the same thing about comparing ethereum and Bitcoin that you are saying about comparing Facebook in MySpace btw. You're pretty much proving my point.
Click to expand...

Tom bootstrapping a social site and Zuckerberg raising millions of dollars from Silicon Valley do not tell the tale of, "They both tried to be businesses."

My point is that Tom never tried to build a business. Zuckerberg did. MySpace only tried to be a business after Facebook made millions.

If you're trying to compare social sites that tried to be businesses a more apt comparison would be Facebook and LinkedIn. Where one is wildly successful and one is mildly successful. It's all guess-work as to which one BTC and ETH are. Which is why I'm betting on both.
 
Rajaah

Rajaah

Honorable Member
<Gold Donor>
12,544
16,572
James said:
If you think a distributed ledger running on a proof of work consensus is even a fraction of the usefulness of a distributed state machine running on proof of stake, you are indeed a sucker, crypto boomer, and an idiot on top of it. If you think Ethereum is centralized, it's because you have no idea what you're talking about, it's not even remotely close to true. Do you understand how much harder it is to control 51% of the market cap compared to controlling 51% of the hashpower? Literally a super basic concept that is eluding you for whatever reason.

Do better.

EDIT:



Ethereum is the first distributed state machine to market, which means it does everything Bitcoin does and a whole hell of a lot more. It will not take long for the retail sector to figure this out. Myspace was first to market.
Click to expand...

You sound like you know what you're talking about, but you're also barreling in here with this "I know better than anyone else" attitude, letting that guy have it with both barrels. Generally most people who say "do better" after calling people idiots aren't worth listening to. I think you might be worth listening to, but you may want to tone it down a bit.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Truth!
Reactions: 2 users
Rajaah

Rajaah

Honorable Member
<Gold Donor>
12,544
16,572
Arden said:
No, I agree, but I think BTC and ETH are both something beyond "money"- especially ETH.

Plus, unlike MySpace, I don't think BTC is going anywhere. I just think ETH will prevail as the "top dog" transactional crypto. As has been stated, it's pretty clear a multi-crypto paradigm is in our future, and both ETH and BTC will definitely factor into that future.
Click to expand...

Are you still rolling with VET? Haven't seen you mention it lately.
 
Jackie Treehorn

Jackie Treehorn

<Gold Donor>
2,908
7,482
Rajaah said:
Are you still rolling with VET? Haven't seen you mention it lately.
Click to expand...

VET hasn't rallied much lately, that's for sure. Every time it gets blasted back down to .16-17 it never gets past 21ish. VTHO likewise hasn't been keeping it's usual 1/10th of VET.

I'm personally huge into MATIC off-exchange now and I'm sticking with it for a while, stacking more and more coins with interest.
 
Arden

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,732
2,055
Rajaah said:
Are you still rolling with VET? Haven't seen you mention it lately.
Click to expand...
Yep, it's still my second biggest position after ETH. I won't be surprised if it hits 2$+ by the end of the year. The big question will be what to do if it does: cash out or stick. I'm still mulling how long term of an investment it is.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user
You must log in or register to reply here.