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Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,679
3,080
If I were to chart my home's value as denominated in BTC over the last ten years, would it not primarily just be a chart of BTC's price and mostly obscure real-estate value fluctuations?
Sure, but you could denominate it in gold for a similar, if less dramatic, effect. The basic idea is that if you're measuring everything with the USD then you can't properly see the manipulation of the USD in what you're observing. You can't observe a system from within that same system.

S sliverstorm good catch on the chart, I didn't notice that. I'm not really interested in defending Mark Moss, however I think the point could be made that he's referring to the shape of the movements between the charts rather that just the scale. The point remains valid even if the scale isn't 1:1, unless I'm missing something obvious here.

Setting aside chart crimes the real inflation rate could arguably be around ~8% annually over the past 20 or so years if you use the original calculations from the 70's as I understand it. Assuming that is the case then the point that S&P really only tracks "real" inflation would accurate. Granted that 8% "real" inflation number is going from memory, I would have to find sources of someone doing that calculation using the original CPI formulas before they started getting manipulated.

If you want to make the argument that the official CPI calculation coming from the government are legitimate...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,603
81,529
Sure, but you could denominate it in gold for a similar, if less dramatic, effect. The basic idea is that if you're measuring everything with the USD then you can't properly see the manipulation of the USD in what you're observing. You can't observe a system from within that same system.
Sure, what system would you propose measures the value of say, real estate, in a way that captures fluctuations of real-estate while minimizing fluctuations of value in the denomination? BTC is probably the worst one being discussed. "Number of Latest iPhones" would probably be better by a lot.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,679
3,080
Sure, what system would you propose measures the value of say, real estate, in a way that captures fluctuations of real-estate while minimizing fluctuations of value in the denomination? BTC is probably the worst one being discussed. "Number of Latest iPhones" would probably be better by a lot.
You're asking for an accurate measuring stick during, what I suspect, is going to be historically volatile times as the current global reserve asset is demonetizing. How did one accurately measure real estate in Germany between the world wars?

Add to this that IMO we're watching the next global reserve asset monetize from $0 and yea its going to be hard to get a stable mark to measure against in the short term.

Current geopolitical events can essentially all be linked back to the apparently imminent flight from USD and into... Something. There is a general move away from FX reserves and toward solid goods. Gold, natural resources (in ground often), oil, and yes even Bitcoin. That's really what BRICS is all about... They're net producers of good while the western countries are net consumers and the producers are no longer interested in selling tangible goods for monopoly money.

My main point is that it is probably a good idea to stop measuring everything solely against USD because you'll not be able determine whether an asset is gaining value or the USD is just depreciating against it. Measuring against BTC is good for a number of reasons... But one of those reason is that you are watching the whole world get less expensive year over year.
 
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sliverstorm

Trakanon Raider
111
216
Sure, but you could denominate it in gold for a similar, if less dramatic, effect. The basic idea is that if you're measuring everything with the USD then you can't properly see the manipulation of the USD in what you're observing. You can't observe a system from within that same system.

S sliverstorm good catch on the chart, I didn't notice that. I'm not really interested in defending Mark Moss, however I think the point could be made that he's referring to the shape of the movements between the charts rather that just the scale. The point remains valid even if the scale isn't 1:1, unless I'm missing something obvious here.

Setting aside chart crimes the real inflation rate could arguably be around ~8% annually over the past 20 or so years if you use the original calculations from the 70's as I understand it. Assuming that is the case then the point that S&P really only tracks "real" inflation would accurate. Granted that 8% "real" inflation number is going from memory, I would have to find sources of someone doing that calculation using the original CPI formulas before they started getting manipulated.

If you want to make the argument that the official CPI calculation coming from the government are legitimate...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Okay, chart crimes aside... this will be a long one, but I want to lay out my POV. I'll start with the money supply, then move to 8% inflation.

First, regarding the 'shape of the curve', it's easier to get a high r^2 when you compare two "total volume" datasets that both go up. Something that would be more compelling to me would be to see that % increases period to period correlate in any way between S&P performance and monetary supply increases. Here's that chart for US M2 vs. S&P 500:
1718225309285.png


You can draw a generally positive horizontal line through both of those, but there's no meaningful relationship even by lagging/leading the data.

----

I think we agree that inflation is priced into the S&P 500, but what I disagree with is the assertion that the totality of market gains represent solely inflation. Practically, I'd offer the proof that companies grow not just through price, but through quantity (of customers, of units sold, etc.). We can see this in any earnings report.

8% annual inflation is a staggering number. It's something like a 4.5x price increase in 20 years. I'm not one for anecdotal evidence, but look around at the stuff you purchase now vs. 2004. Do you see that 4.5x?

If you think BLS produces garbage price data at the survey level, then nothing I say after this will convince you otherwise. I will say that pretty much everyone, even the people estimating very high inflation, use that data, so let's assume you're willing to trust the raw data but you distrust the CPI calculation.

BLS publishes R-CPI-U-RS, which calculates historical Urban CPI (93% of pop) using modern methodology. We can compare that to the historical CPI-U to get an understanding of how much modern methodology changes are influencing CPI. All this data comes directly from BLS--I calculated it by taking YoY of average CPI annually:
1718258833991.png


At worst it's a 2% methodology difference in 1979 and 1980, with that gap quickly shrinking to insignificant in subsequent years.

Now let me tell you my understanding of what some crazy person did to get to 8% annual inflation <-- this is wrong, and I'll explain why.

First, they looked at this timeframe in red:
1718259219456.png


Then, they took the sum of all the annual YoY % differences between YoY R-CPU-U-RS and YoY CPI-U (red line minus blue line) across that 1981 - 2011 (31 year) span, which totaled 5.1%. Finally, they said, that's the cumulative gap that reflects the full impact of reverse engineering the methodology changes, so we need to add 5.1% plus some additional smaller fudge factor to the reported YoY CPI every year to get the true YoY CPI.

You can see the issue. That 5.1% change comes from 31 years of adding together the same very small actual methodology change--you can't then apply that total to EVERY FOLLOWING YEAR and say 3% + 5% = 8%. Even if you agreed with the concept, the annual adjustment would be closer to 5.1%/31 = 0.16% per year, which is relatively inconsequential.

Claiming that the change in each year is somehow "cumulative" is a gross mathematical error. It seems insane that a human could publish that and then stand by it. Yet, that's exactly what this Williams person did. You can see the table around the middle of their paper--to their credit and the credit of the BLS, I was able to perfectly recreate their numbers over 10 years later. But their methodology is, in my view and the view of many others, dead wrong for the reasons I described above.

Ultimately, you can be the judge. Maybe you're referring to something else, but that's what I am familiar with. I don't believe there is a real long-term inflation of 8% and I do believe that owning 'assets' protects against what inflation there is.
 
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Haus

<Silver Donator>
12,826
50,016
Okay, chart crimes aside... this will be a long one, but I want to lay out my POV. I'll start with the money supply, then move to 8% inflation.

First, regarding the 'shape of the curve', it's easier to get a high r^2 when you compare two "total volume" datasets that both go up. Something that would be more compelling to me would be to see that % increases period to period correlate in any way between S&P performance and monetary supply increases. Here's that chart for US M2 vs. S&P 500:
View attachment 532543

You can draw a generally positive horizontal line through both of those, but there's no meaningful relationship even by lagging/leading the data.

----

I think we agree that inflation is priced into the S&P 500, but what I disagree with is the assertion that the totality of market gains represent solely inflation. Practically, I'd offer the proof that companies grow not just through price, but through quantity (of customers, of units sold, etc.). We can see this in any earnings report.

8% annual inflation is a staggering number. It's something like a 4.5x price increase in 20 years. I'm not one for anecdotal evidence, but look around at the stuff you purchase now vs. 2004. Do you see that 4.5x?

If you think BLS produces garbage price data at the survey level, then nothing I say after this will convince you otherwise. I will say that pretty much everyone, even the people estimating very high inflation, use that data, so let's assume you're willing to trust the raw data but you distrust the CPI calculation.

BLS publishes R-CPI-U-RS, which calculates historical Urban CPI (93% of pop) using modern methodology. We can compare that to the historical CPI-U to get an understanding of how much modern methodology changes are influencing CPI. All this data comes directly from BLS--I calculated it by taking YoY of average CPI annually:
View attachment 532624

At worst it's a 2% methodology difference in 1979 and 1980, with that gap quickly shrinking to insignificant in subsequent years.

Now let me tell you my understanding of what some crazy person did to get to 8% annual inflation <-- this is wrong, and I'll explain why.

First, they looked at this timeframe in red:
View attachment 532625

Then, they took the sum of all the annual YoY % differences between YoY R-CPU-U-RS and YoY CPI-U (red line minus blue line) across that 1981 - 2011 (31 year) span, which totaled 5.1%. Finally, they said, that's the cumulative gap that reflects the full impact of reverse engineering the methodology changes, so we need to add 5.1% plus some additional smaller fudge factor to the reported YoY CPI every year to get the true YoY CPI.

You can see the issue. That 5.1% change comes from 31 years of adding together the same very small actual methodology change--you can't then apply that total to EVERY FOLLOWING YEAR and say 3% + 5% = 8%. Even if you agreed with the concept, the annual adjustment would be closer to 5.1%/31 = 0.16% per year, which is relatively inconsequential.

Claiming that the change in each year is somehow "cumulative" is a gross mathematical error. It seems insane that a human could publish that and then stand by it. Yet, that's exactly what this Williams person did. You can see the table around the middle of their paper--to their credit and the credit of the BLS, I was able to perfectly recreate their numbers over 10 years later. But their methodology is, in my view and the view of many others, dead wrong for the reasons I described above.

Ultimately, you can be the judge. Maybe you're referring to something else, but that's what I am familiar with. I don't believe there is a real long-term inflation of 8% and I do believe that owning 'assets' protects against what inflation there is.
I think the larger flaw in all of this is that the BLS openly states that they change what is in the "basket of goods", but don't disclose what the "basket of goods" is. And over time there have been substantial changes in how the calculation was done, almost all politically motivated. It happened in the 70's then again in the 90's. If you calculate the inflation rate and CPI based on how it was traditionally looked at then you have a somewhat bleaker picture of the inflation effect on people.

Another problem I have with the official BLS released statistics is the open fact that they don't take into account some of the most volatile and fastest growing costs such as energy and housing.

If you look at the long picture of it you can tell they're just working to give the government numbers which make them look better and make inflation look "under control" when in reality it's consistently outpacing wage increases to the point that literally "the poor get poorer". At some point that divergence between rhetoric and reality will hit a snapping point.

Anybody who takes care of their own household budget can tell you the years since the beginning of covid have been FAR more brutal cost-wise than the official indicators allow for. I analyzed the costs of some of our groceries from Sam's and saw close to a 70% increase in costs since 2020. This being thanks to the fact that the Sam's Club website tracks all your purchases and I was able to literally make a spreadsheet showing what the average weekly trip to the grocery store costs over time. And was even able to drill down to show specific things which had the biggest increases. And those things were in many cases the staples.. (bread, butter, meat, etc...)

It's what gives power to the question which Reagan asked, and Trump is now asking.... "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?"
 
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sliverstorm

Trakanon Raider
111
216
I think the larger flaw in all of this is that the BLS openly states that they change what is in the "basket of goods", but don't disclose what the "basket of goods" is. And over time there have been substantial changes in how the calculation was done, almost all politically motivated. It happened in the 70's then again in the 90's. If you calculate the inflation rate and CPI based on how it was traditionally looked at then you have a somewhat bleaker picture of the inflation effect on people.

Another problem I have with the official BLS released statistics is the open fact that they don't take into account some of the most volatile and fastest growing costs such as energy and housing.

If you look at the long picture of it you can tell they're just working to give the government numbers which make them look better and make inflation look "under control" when in reality it's consistently outpacing wage increases to the point that literally "the poor get poorer". At some point that divergence between rhetoric and reality will hit a snapping point.

Anybody who takes care of their own household budget can tell you the years since the beginning of covid have been FAR more brutal cost-wise than the official indicators allow for. I analyzed the costs of some of our groceries from Sam's and saw close to a 70% increase in costs since 2020. This being thanks to the fact that the Sam's Club website tracks all your purchases and I was able to literally make a spreadsheet showing what the average weekly trip to the grocery store costs over time. And was even able to drill down to show specific things which had the biggest increases. And those things were in many cases the staples.. (bread, butter, meat, etc...)

It's what gives power to the question which Reagan asked, and Trump is now asking.... "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?"
Last large post from me on the CPI derail.

Firstly, I agree that every soundbite an administration posts about interpreting inflation, jobs, wages, "preliminary" numbers are all bullshit and politically motivated. The Biden admin claiming "fastest growing economy" by using a baseline of the very COVID crater caused by government policy in the face of the highest inflation seen in over forty years is surely one of the the most egregious, gaslighting lies I've ever read in print. Chain them to the inside of the latrine under the prison in Hell.

But I do believe that one of the U.S. government's strengths is its incredible wealth of free, reliable, publicly available, easily accessible, transparently sourced statistical data. I'd like to take a shot at convincing you, as well. I'll try to address your points in order:


Old vs New Methodology
Every methodology change to CPI is posted publicly on the BLS website. As an example, the big change in 1978 was the introduction of CPI-U, which increased population coverage from just urban wage earners (~28% of US) to total urban population (88% at the time, I think I quoted the current proportion at 93%) and is generally what is quoted today. They also increased the volume, frequency, and error reduction of sampling.

The second chart in my last post shows the total impact of modern vs. historical methods. It is bleaker, but not by much, and gives a sense for just how little the changes really impact the final number.

----

Weights, or 'basket of goods'
This info is all publicly available on the BLS website, in detail. Here's an easier-to-digest view that also shows YoY for the most recent month. To go even simpler, I've summarized every major category and its current weighting in a table below:
CategoryCPI-U weighting
Food and Beverage14.409
Housing (inc. Energy)45.065
Apparel2.512
Transportation15.898
Medical care8.004
Recreation5.307
Education and communication5.906
Other goods and services2.899

You can dive down to the Entry Level Items to see definitions. Weights get adjusted based on relative consumption expenditure for the time period.

Notably, both Energy and Housing are present in the widely-reported topline number. Sometimes, people look at a cut called 'Core Inflation', which excludes Energy and Food, due to their more volatile prices. But the data for all cuts (and many, many more) is published and available.

----

Inflation vs Wages
I agree with your sentiment about inflation outpacing wages--but the CPI ALSO agrees with you. According to CPI, over the first 3 years of this admin, you would have needed an 18% pay raise just to break even with inflation and maintain the same standard of living.

Private industry wage growth over the same period--again from BLS--was only 14% on average, meaning the average American lost ~3% earning power over three years, which is an absolutely brutal narrative (comparatively, 2017-2019 was 6.5% inflation vs. 8.5% private industry wage growth). Practically, there are plenty of people who are <10% wage increase over the first three years, and they are writhing in pain.

----

Groceries
Again, CPI data lines up with your experience (and mine). Here's a CPI chart showing the cost increase of the common grocery items you mentioned:
1718336501817.png

Comparing Jan 2019 to Jan 2024:
  • Bread: 60% increase ($1.27 to $2.03)
  • Chicken: 35% increase ($1.47 to $1.99)
  • Eggs: 63% increase ($1.55 to $2.52)
  • Ground Beef: 36% increase ($3.73 to $5.09)
  • Milk: 36% increase ($2.91 to $3.96)
And those are IMPROVED from their respective peaks. Combined with that relative period of stability-to-decline in the four years prior, too... hard not to feel it bad.


TL;DR I agree completely with your narrative about the painful impact of inflation, and CPI data reflects the same narrative accurately. Politicians cherry pick and misleadingly frame statistics and give an otherwise excellent dataset a bad name.
 
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Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Last large post from me on the CPI derail.

Firstly, I agree that every soundbite an administration posts about interpreting inflation, jobs, wages, "preliminary" numbers are all bullshit and politically motivated. The Biden admin claiming "fastest growing economy" by using a baseline of the very COVID crater caused by government policy in the face of the highest inflation seen in over forty years is surely one of the the most egregious, gaslighting lies I've ever read in print. Chain them to the inside of the latrine under the prison in Hell.

But I do believe that one of the U.S. government's strengths is its incredible wealth of free, reliable, publicly available, easily accessible, transparently sourced statistical data. I'd like to take a shot at convincing you, as well. I'll try to address your points in order:


Old vs New Methodology
Every methodology change to CPI is posted publicly on the BLS website. As an example, the big change in 1978 was the introduction of CPI-U, which increased population coverage from just urban wage earners (~28% of US) to total urban population (88% at the time, I think I quoted the current proportion at 93%) and is generally what is quoted today. They also increased the volume, frequency, and error reduction of sampling.

The second chart in my last post shows the total impact of modern vs. historical methods. It is bleaker, but not by much, and gives a sense for just how little the changes really impact the final number.

----

Weights, or 'basket of goods'
This info is all publicly available on the BLS website, in detail. Here's an easier-to-digest view that also shows YoY for the most recent month. To go even simpler, I've summarized every major category and its current weighting in a table below:
CategoryCPI-U weighting
Food and Beverage14.409
Housing (inc. Energy)45.065
Apparel2.512
Transportation15.898
Medical care8.004
Recreation5.307
Education and communication5.906
Other goods and services2.899

You can dive down to the Entry Level Items to see definitions. Weights get adjusted based on relative consumption expenditure for the time period.

Notably, both Energy and Housing are present in the widely-reported topline number. Sometimes, people look at a cut called 'Core Inflation', which excludes Energy and Food, due to their more volatile prices. But the data for all cuts (and many, many more) is published and available.

----

Inflation vs Wages
I agree with your sentiment about inflation outpacing wages--but the CPI ALSO agrees with you. According to CPI, over the first 3 years of this admin, you would have needed an 18% pay raise just to break even with inflation and maintain the same standard of living.

Private industry wage growth over the same period--again from BLS--was only 14% on average, meaning the average American lost ~3% earning power over three years, which is an absolutely brutal narrative (comparatively, 2017-2019 was 6.5% inflation vs. 8.5% private industry wage growth). Practically, there are plenty of people who are <10% wage increase over the first three years, and they are writhing in pain.

----

Groceries
Again, CPI data lines up with your experience (and mine). Here's a CPI chart showing the cost increase of the common grocery items you mentioned:
View attachment 532723
Comparing Jan 2019 to Jan 2024:
  • Bread: 60% increase ($1.27 to $2.03)
  • Chicken: 35% increase ($1.47 to $1.99)
  • Eggs: 63% increase ($1.55 to $2.52)
  • Ground Beef: 36% increase ($3.73 to $5.09)
  • Milk: 36% increase ($2.91 to $3.96)
And those are IMPROVED from their respective peaks. Combined with that relative period of stability-to-decline in the four years prior, too... hard not to feel it bad.


TL;DR I agree completely with your narrative about the painful impact of inflation, and CPI data reflects the same narrative accurately. Politicians cherry pick and misleadingly frame statistics and give an otherwise excellent dataset a bad name.
giphy.gif
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,996
17,044
I'm about to blow my own mind by having a re-entry plan and being patient after failing to follow it.

Do I pull the trigger early or just sit tight?

1719260289871.png
 
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Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,744
2,074
I don't really get the gimmick. I guess he's just appealing to the crypto lobby, which has actually become pretty potent lately. If you read the comments to that tweet though, it's pretty clear most of the crypto people aren't impressed and the anti-crypto people are disgusted. Doesn't seem to be turning out like he thought it would either way.

To wit:
1 - Copy.png
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,679
3,080
If I'm the government and I see Bitcoin the way I do, I have every incentive to start collecting as much as possible. Also collecting taxes in a currency is a significant step toward that currency being a legal medium of exchange. As a citizen its stupid to pay in Bitcoin unless you're literally buying the bitcoin and immediately sending it to make a point or avoiding a capital gain from selling into USD first. As the government it makes complete sense.
 
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Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,505
1,151
If I'm the government and I see Bitcoin the way I do, I have every incentive to start collecting as much as possible. Also collecting taxes in a currency is a significant step toward that currency being a legal medium of exchange. As a citizen it’s stupid to pay in Bitcoin unless you're literally buying the bitcoin and immediately sending it to make a point or avoiding a capital gain from selling into USD first. As the government it makes complete sense.
Counterpoint: it doesn’t make any sense at all
 
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Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,744
2,074
Sigh. Matt Gaetz isn't some pro government agent trying to help the feds steal your bitcoin. He's just pandering to the crypto lobby and doing a shitty job of it.
 
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Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,744
2,074
SCOTUS just struck down Chevron. Wow. Big crypto implications.

Edit:

1.png
 
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