Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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Sebudai

Ssraeszha Raider
12,022
22,504
But if tuition is free for everyone, what other vehicle can we use to hamfistedly penalize or reward various groups for their supposed privileges or handicaps?
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
<Silver Donator>
55,943
138,381
bear in mind Iran has free tuition, russia, kenya, oman, somalia, uae, algeria, tunisia it's just all over the place compared to results.
 

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
Wasn't Tuition free in the UK for a good period?

Still had an excellent higher education system education system. Probably the second best are in the world next to the US north east.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,564
41,383
Well it turns out Tanoomba was wrong, but will be right:

Bill Text - SB-967 Student safety: sexual assault.

(2) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in any disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse to alleged lack of affirmative consent that the accused believed that the complainant consented to the sexual activity under either of the following circumstances:
(A) The accused's belief in affirmative consent arose from the intoxication or recklessness of the accused.
So if you have sex with alcohol, you can simply claim the consent was believed due to the impairment of the other party - you didn'treallyconsent. The burden is no longer to prove a sexual assault, only to indicate that the other party was intoxicated so they could not identify yourtruelack of consent.

Apparently 'yes means yes' is not quite the truth of it...
 

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
<Banned>
10,170
1,439
Well it turns out Tanoomba was wrong, but will be right:

Bill Text - SB-967 Student safety: sexual assault.



So if you have sex with alcohol, you can simply claim the consent was believed due to the impairment of the other party - you didn'treallyconsent. The burden is no longer to prove a sexual assault, only to indicate that the other party was intoxicated so they could not identify yourtruelack of consent.

Apparently 'yes means yes' is not quite the truth of it...
Ummmm...... duh? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I really question why so many of you guys are so vehemently opposed to the concept of trying to prevent people from taking advantage of ridiculously drunk people to fuck them. Need I remind you that the majority of female-on-male rape is a woman taking advantage of a man's drunken state?

And before you decide to crack out that "false rape accusations for everyone!" chestnut, allow me to remind you that there is a legal standard that must be met before a claim of "too drunk to consent" can hold any water (according to the law, at least, I don't know how these cases are judged on campus).

Honestly, it's like you guys just search for reasons to claim "they're out to get us!"
 

Adebisi

Clump of Cells
<Silver Donator>
27,714
32,825
8e488f.jpg
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,564
41,383
Ummmm...... duh? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I really question why so many of you guys are so vehemently opposed to the concept of trying to prevent people from taking advantage of ridiculously drunk people to fuck them. Need I remind you that the majority of female-on-male rape is a woman taking advantage of a man's drunken state?

And before you decide to crack out that "false rape accusations for everyone!" chestnut, allow me to remind you that there is a legal standard that must be met before a claim of "too drunk to consent" can hold any water (according to the law, at least, I don't know how these cases are judged on campus).

Honestly, it's like you guys just search for reasons to claim "they're out to get us!"
That's funny, I did a ctrl-f and couldn't find 'ridiculously drunk people' or 'too drunk to fuck' definitions in there. I guess they just mean 'intoxicated' by the dictionary definition which is:

: affected by or as if by alcohol : drunk
- in?tox?i?cat?ed?ly adverb
See intoxicated defined for English-language learners ?
I'm just going to grab the popcorn, thank fuck I'm out of school.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
I wouldn't have any problem paying significantly higher taxes (property or payroll) if the proceeds went to education.

The problem is that it never -does-, but that is always how they sell it. If it isn't straight up embezzled or otherwise appropriated it falls victim to pork or straight up graft.

Maybe that's different in different places. But around here, these people are fucking crooks.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
That's funny, I did a ctrl-f and couldn't find 'ridiculously drunk people' or 'too drunk to fuck' definitions in there. I guess they just mean 'intoxicated' by the dictionary definition which is:

I'm just going to grab the popcorn, thank fuck I'm out of school.
Best part is that it was Fana's post is a case of "rape" where the girl actually text messaged the guy asking if he had a condom, and then texted her friend she was going to have sex and then walked BACK to the guys room--was declared sexual assault. So--even when there is computer documentation of consent, you can still be charged with sexual assault. Obviously there is no reason to worry about how a powerful, formative institution in a young person's life (College) is not adhering to some basic due process; nope.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,206
23,406
I'd be fine with free govt subsidized tuition if it were harder to get into university. I'm fine with a free education for all, but not everyone needs a 4 year degree. I'm in favor of the German system, which has fairly severe tracking and entrance exams as early as middle school.
Tracking systems seem nice but the data shows otherwise. Frequently you end up with situations where two individuals have no fundamental differences in ability, but one was placed in a higher track, got access to better educational opportunities, more interesting and engaging course material, better classmates, etc, for fairly arbitrary reasons. There's also the problem of expectations, the 'smart' tracked kids work harder because they're told they're smart, while the 'average' kids slack because they're told they're average.

School systems that had successful tracking programs have experimented with eliminating them in favor of giving every student the same college preparatory education with results demonstrating significantly higher levels of achievement and college preparation across the board.

I used to believe pretty strongly in tracking systems but once I saw the real world data against them I had to change my mind. You can still offer specifically challenging standalone courses and optional college credit courses without worry, but sorting students into A/B/C troughs for every subject for their entire high school career is demonstrably harmful to overall achievement.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,442
49,113
Tracking systems seem nice but the data shows otherwise. Frequently you end up with situations where two individuals have no fundamental differences in ability, but one was placed in a higher track, got access to better educational opportunities, better classmates, etc, for fairly arbitrary reasons. There's also the problem of expectations, the 'smart' tracked kids work harder because they're told they're smart, while the 'average' kids slack because they're told they're average.

School systems that had successful tracking programs have experimented with eliminating them in favor of giving every student the same college preparatory education with results demonstrating significantly higher levels of achievement and college preparation across the board.

I used to believe pretty strongly in tracking systems but once I saw the real world data against them I had to change my mind. You can still offer specifically challenging standalone courses and optional college credit courses without worry, but sorting students into A/B/C troughs for every subject for their entire high school career is demonstrably harmful to overall achievement.
And yet, Germany.

I don't really trust educators to self-study, honestly. I think it serves the social goals they have for themselves if the data "happens to show" that every kid improves if we treat them all the same, when they are not the same.

If I hadn't had an awesome school-within-a-school when I was growing up I would have hated the fuck out of school. As it was half the people in my LEAP track were national merit scholars. My high school experience was pretty cool because of the people I was around.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,206
23,406
And yet, Germany.

I don't really trust educators to self-study, honestly. I think it serves the social goals they have for themselves if the data "happens to show" that every kid improves if we treat them all the same, when they are not the same.

If I hadn't had an awesome school-within-a-school when I was growing up I would have hated the fuck out of school. As it was half the people in my LEAP track were national merit scholars. My high school experience was pretty cool because of the people I was around.
Germany's lowest tracks beat our middle ones. It's about standards and expectations. The problem with our tracking systems is that they're used as excuses to give incredibly low quality educations to an extremely large number of students, while our highest tracks really aren't even that high. And those tracking decisions are mostly made arbitrarily by guidance counselors, who have all the same racist and classist biases that the rest of us do.

As far as educators, educators LOVE tracking, because it makes teaching way easier. It is absolutely not the case of people seeing what they want to see, because educators are the MOST in favor of keeping existing tracking systems and MOST resistant to change. The teachers who get assigned the 'smart' kids don't have to worry about actually having to to teach difficult students, while the teachers who get assigned the average or poor students are not expected to actually produce anything beyond average or poor results. The current incarnation of the NEA loves tracking (they were briefly against it in the 90s, before they realized it meant teachers would actually have to start working again) which is in itself a good reason why it should seriously be put under the microscope.

As far as national merit scholars, all that means is they got a good score on their PSAT. Big fucking whoop. I was a national merit scholar even though I even took algebra I (because they assigned me to the smart track when I switched schools, despite my old school not teaching algebra I in 8th grade) and barely passed algebra II because of it.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,442
49,113
Germany's lowest tracks beat our middle ones. It's about standards and expectations. The problem with our tracking systems is that they're used as excuses to give incredibly low quality educations to an extremely large number of students, while our highest tracks really aren't even that high. And those tracking decisions are mostly made arbitrarily by guidance counselors, who have all the same racist and classist biases that the rest of us do.
Right, it would be terrible if someone made some decisions that might be racist or classist. Social justice at work!

As far as educators, educators LOVE tracking, because it makes teaching way easier. It is absolutely not the case of people seeing what they want to see, because educators are the MOST in favor of keeping existing tracking systems and MOST resistant to change. The teachers who get assigned the 'smart' kids don't have to worry about actually having to to teach difficult students, while the teachers who get assigned the average or poor students are not expected to actually produce anything beyond average or poor results. The current incarnation of the NEA loves tracking (they were briefly against it in the 90s, before they realized it meant teachers would actually have to start working again) which is in itself a good reason why it should seriously be put under the microscope.
Source for educators all supporting tracking? Seems like a mixed class would relieve most of the "pressure" because they can always blame any problems on their retards, and if the gifted kids get held back, they can blame the retards again. Teaching a "smart" class would give you a shit-ton of pressure, because if those kids don't deliver, who can you blame besides the teacher? And the "lower" tracks are usually behavior problems not retards, so what teacher would want that?

As far as national merit scholars, all that means is they got a good score on their PSAT. Big fucking whoop. I was a national merit scholar even though I even took algebra I (because they assigned me to the smart track when I switched schools, despite my old school not teaching algebra I in 8th grade) and barely passed algebra II because of it.
Actually it means they got a qualifying score on their PSAT, then an outstanding score on the SAT (top 1-2%) and had a qualifying GPA/class rank/etc. I have no idea what Algebra 1/2 has to do with national merit aside from maybe you got a bad grade in algebra2? So?
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
14,071
6,775
So what is the alternative to tracking? Teaching everyone together? Seems a recipe designed to make it boring for the better students and too challenging for the weaker students.

Seems most of the problems with tracking is if students aren't allowed to move from one track to another. Are students in the lower tracks not encouraged or able to move up? I was put in the remedial math track in my freshmen highschool year due to a vindictive junior high teacher. By my junior year I was in the advanced program.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,206
23,406
Right, it would be terrible if someone made some decisions that might be racist or classist. Social justice at work!
Yeah, it really is terrible if someone has their chances for the rest of their life degraded because of an arbitrary decision someone made about them in the 4th grade, because they didn't like the color of their skin or whatever other idiotic reason kids get put into troughs. It's also self-perpetuating, which is a really bad thing.

Source for educators all supporting tracking? Seems like a mixed class would relieve most of the "pressure" because they can always blame any problems on their retards, and if the gifted kids get held back, they can blame the retards again. Teaching a "smart" class would give you a shit-ton of pressure, because if those kids don't deliver, who can you blame besides the teacher? And the "lower" tracks are usually behavior problems not retards, so what teacher would want that?
80-85% of educators support tracking for students. Ironically, very few educators support tracking teacher performance. The rest of your points are fucking nonsense and the complete opposite of how schools actually work.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
20,346
14,012
So what is the alternative to tracking? Teaching everyone together?
The year after I graduated high school every school within my district switched from tracking to that ridiculous "no child left behind" grouping. Basically exactly as you stated. Teaching every kid, regardless of any educational factors, together in homogenized curriculums and classrooms. There was no more special ed, honors, or gifted and talented tracks. All the kids were together. It lasted about 3 years before they realized how retarded it was and did away with it.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
14,071
6,775
Teaching every kid, regardless of any educational factors, together in homogenized curriculums and classrooms. There was no more special ed, honors, or gifted and talented tracks. All the kids were together.
That sounds absolutely horrible for anyone outside the average. If this is what Mist is talking about, uggh. I mean, I get the idea that by doing it this way, some poorer students would work harder. Is that worth leaving behind the worse students and boring the shit out of the better students? Dunno.