Car ?'s

mkopec · May 31, 2023

This is what only time and experience can fix for Tesla. Basically learning from mistakes. Lessons learned and all that. Then implementing fixes from R&D all the way down to production. For instance the company I work for has a ever evolving bible of top secret methods formulas dimensions etc... All wrapped up into an online book covering everything that involves consoles and Instrument Panels. And this is constantly fed with current programs lessons learned, warranty issues, etc... Basically every part on the Instrument Panel has its own set of instructions you need to follow to get proper results. Especially things like the Abag and Abag deployment is crucial to get everything right.

Bottom line this is only fixed by time and proper procedures to document all of it.

Axiel · May 31, 2023

Lanx said:
more toyota/subaru ev garbage

Wouldn't be all that surprised if the woman left the trunk open or dome light on.

Software/electronics really should be smarter at managing the 12V battery by now, anyways. Real reason Toyota is selling that prototype is government coercion.

Cad · May 31, 2023

Axiel said:
Wouldn't be all that surprised if the woman left the trunk open or dome light on.

Software/electronics really should be smarter at managing the 12V battery by now, anyways. Real reason Toyota is selling that prototype is government coercion.

Do you know how fucking long it would take to discharge the battery this way on an EV? The 12V battery will recharge from the traction battery when its voltage drops below a predetermined level. You can leave a Tesla "running" for days and days on end if you're not driving.

sleevedraw · May 31, 2023

Siliconemelons said:
Toyota has been riding their 90's wave for decades and have really done nothing new innovative or anything. They are expensive vs Honda or Nissan, they are (now) not nearly as rock solid as before.

GR Corolla looks and performs fantastic, so they can still make a good car when they put in the effort. They just don't put in the effort very much.

Really wish they'd make a warm hatch variant like the Civic Si; I'd be all over that.

ToeMissile · May 31, 2023

mkopec said:
This is what only time and experience can fix for Tesla. Basically learning from mistakes. Lessons learned and all that. Then implementing fixes from R&D all the way down to production. For instance the company I work for has a ever evolving bible of top secret methods formulas dimensions etc... All wrapped up into an online book covering everything that involves consoles and Instrument Panels. And this is constantly fed with current programs lessons learned, warranty issues, etc... Basically every part on the Instrument Panel has its own set of instructions you need to follow to get proper results. Especially things like the Abag and Abag deployment is crucial to get everything right.

Bottom line this is only fixed by time and proper procedures to document all of it.

For sure, it's a complicated endeavor.
I'm basically a shill at this point, but the Munro Live videos pretty great for insight to the whole design/build process. I've definitely learned a lot.

Seems like you have some level of experience, is it in cars or some other manufacturing?

https://youtube.com/@MunroLive

mkopec · May 31, 2023

Been designing and engineering car parts since 1993. Started in sheet metal then slowly evolved into interiors and Instrument panels for the last couple of decades.

Cad · May 31, 2023

Lanx said:
more toyota/subaru ev garbage

now the battery charges slow as shit and just dies on you
at the beginning of the year the wheels fucking fell off, now this

this doesn't even make sense if it was only subaru (they share the bz4x and solterra platforms) but it's toyota fucking this shit up, the fucking mega kings of hybrid and they can't pump out an ev car

EV's are a lot harder to make on the software/electronics side than the traditional automakers are accounting for. It seems to me that they are used to making these discrete control systems that work each little subsystem of the car, then they'll have a system integration bus where those subsystems talk to each other. Tesla just has one big control system that controls everything, which is a lot harder to engineer.

Traditional automakers have basically locked out other automakers by engine regulations and the completely fucking absurd cost to certify a new engine for emissions, which the EV world makes simple. The downside is this exposes how difficult it actually is to build an EV - which Tesla actually does well - because they operate more like a software company and less like a car company.

Tesla is not a magic bullet there are definitely things I like about other cars that Tesla could improve on. But Tesla also does a lot of things very well that the other automakers aren't even close to.

Axiel · May 31, 2023

Cad said:
Do you know how fucking long it would take to discharge the battery this way on an EV? The 12V battery will recharge from the traction battery when its voltage drops below a predetermined level. You can leave a Tesla "running" for days and days on end if you're not driving.

The inverter charges the 12V, is also powered by the 12V; and on most NON TESLA EVs won't engage while the car is off.

Cad · May 31, 2023

Axiel said:
The inverter charges the 12V, is also powered by the 12V; and on most NON TESLA EVs won't engage while the car is off.

Minor nitpick.. I don't think the HV -> LV converter is actually "powered by" the 12V; the control system is undoubtedly operated at 12V or 24V like all the other car electronics, but the power is coming from the traction battery which would be 350-800V depending on the manufacturer.

If non-Teslas have it setup such that they wont' charge the 12V when the car is "off" that is pants on head retarded and should be fixed.

Axiel · May 31, 2023

Cad said:
I don't think the HV -> LV converter is actually "powered by" the 12V

Typically it is. Powering complex electronics directly with hv dc would really be "pants on head retarded," it has to be converted first.

Siliconemelons · May 31, 2023

Axiel said:
Typically it is. Powering complex electronics directly with hv dc would really be "pants on head retarded," it has to be converted first.

Its why EVs can get locked out if left alone and the baby battery dies

Happened on my leaf lol

Cad · May 31, 2023

Axiel said:
Typically it is. Powering complex electronics directly with hv dc would really be "pants on head retarded," it has to be converted first.

Where does the HV source come from? Thats whats "powering" the converter. Thats all I mean. It's still retarded if they don't have it set to recharge the 12V battery unless the car is on...

Kobayashi · May 31, 2023

Cad said:
Where does the HV source come from? Thats whats "powering" the converter. Thats all I mean. It's still retarded if they don't have it set to recharge the 12V battery unless the car is on...

It's not that crazy - that's how traditional ICE vehicles work.

Some of it is trade-offs in risk/safety. I know of one OEM that used a contactor that completely disconnected the HV battery from the vehicle when shut off, so that it would be safer to service. That contactor wasn't rated for the number of lifetime cycles that would be required if it needed to power on several times a day to top up the battery.

Some of it is OEMs falling into the trap of getting caught between how they traditionally did things and trying to be more like Tesla. In Toyota's case, they know how to make a Corolla or Camry that doesn't chew up 12V batteries - an EV power train inherently shouldn't be any different, so, why design in all this extra logic. The problem comes in with the mindset that they need to add all these new Tesla-like features to their EVs - special door handles, approach lights, that sentry thing and then don't design it in.

It does end up looking extra stupid when you have a fully charged traction battery and can't start because your 12V system is dead.

Intrinsic · Jun 10, 2023

For all the bitching I have done in real life about car salesmen and dealerships, my experience today has been pretty positive. Wanted to step up from my current truck in to one with a full back seat b/c our second son is on the way so now I'll need two car seats or a car seat + booster, and maybe the dog, and the wife. Anyways, just wanted more space. Also don't really need the full bed as much since I'm more comfortable securing and hauling long lumber. A shorter bed would allow me to use the garage as well.

Anyways, called the dealership I purchased the current truck from and they didn't really express interest in talking to me. Was more of a casual "yeah, well, let us know, no rush." No questions or initiative. Called a second dealership after finding what I was looking for, explained to them that I just had surgery and couldn't drive for two weeks. They immediately were like "no problem I'll drive it out to you so you can take a look, no commitment, let's find you want you want." They were fine discussing numbers and everything over text and phone.

It doesn't take a lot to make me interested in giving you my business, but you have to at leas try. Irritating that so few are willing to do even that these days.

ToeMissile · Jun 11, 2023

And GM is in too.

Lambourne · Jun 11, 2023

Intrinsic said:
For all the bitching I have done in real life about car salesmen and dealerships, my experience today has been pretty positive. Wanted to step up from my current truck in to one with a full back seat b/c our second son is on the way so now I'll need two car seats or a car seat + booster, and maybe the dog, and the wife. Anyways, just wanted more space. Also don't really need the full bed as much since I'm more comfortable securing and hauling long lumber. A shorter bed would allow me to use the garage as well.

Anyways, called the dealership I purchased the current truck from and they didn't really express interest in talking to me. Was more of a casual "yeah, well, let us know, no rush." No questions or initiative. Called a second dealership after finding what I was looking for, explained to them that I just had surgery and couldn't drive for two weeks. They immediately were like "no problem I'll drive it out to you so you can take a look, no commitment, let's find you want you want." They were fine discussing numbers and everything over text and phone.

It doesn't take a lot to make me interested in giving you my business, but you have to at leas try. Irritating that so few are willing to do even that these days.

I hear that. I've been shopping for a BMW i4, contacted 3 dealers via their trade-in quote web form. One responded within 2 hours, one mailed me a form where I had to put in a bunch of data like tire tread depth and whatnot and then never responded again, third still hasn't responded. It's been over a week.

It's definitely a data driven industry nowadays, the dealer that responded offered me 30k for my trade-in sight unseen. I also drove by two used car dealers that I know usually buy trade-ins from the dealers and they came up with 31500 and 32000. In both cases they looked at the car for maybe two minutes, then punched the VIN into some application and gave me their offer. I guess whatever the app says the price is is the price these days, not going to get wildly different offers anymore.

Test drove an i4 at the first dealer yesterday. Pretty nice overall, drives great although there's a few bits in the interior that feel cheaper than my current 5 series. Nothing rattled at least. You can still do most stuff with the idrive controller although the way the interface works it's definitely optimized for touch screen use. I'd rather they had retained the normal controls as the touchscreen focus is my main objection to getting a Tesla model 3 which is like 15-20k cheaper than the i4.

Intrinsic · Jun 11, 2023

Lambourne said:
I hear that. I've been shopping for a BMW i4, contacted 3 dealers via their trade-in quote web form. One responded within 2 hours, one mailed me a form where I had to put in a bunch of data like tire tread depth and whatnot and then never responded again, third still hasn't responded. It's been over a week.

It's definitely a data driven industry nowadays, the dealer that responded offered me 30k for my trade-in sight unseen. I also drove by two used car dealers that I know usually buy trade-ins from the dealers and they came up with 31500 and 32000. In both cases they looked at the car for maybe two minutes, then punched the VIN into some application and gave me their offer. I guess whatever the app says the price is is the price these days, not going to get wildly different offers anymore.

Test drove an i4 at the first dealer yesterday. Pretty nice overall, drives great although there's a few bits in the interior that feel cheaper than my current 5 series. Nothing rattled at least. You can still do most stuff with the idrive controller although the way the interface works it's definitely optimized for touch screen use. I'd rather they had retained the normal controls as the touchscreen focus is my main objection to getting a Tesla model 3 which is like 15-20k cheaper than the i4.

Was a good kid that brought it out. 20 years old, very polite. The biggest factor was when my pregnant wife came out and saw how much room was in the Crew Can for getting kids in/out and how easy it was to get in and out herself with the auto running boards. At that point she gave the 100%. Had to tell the kid to stop talking past the sell lol.

Plus I already drive a RAM I just needed slightly different options. No need to show me how the back hitch works.

It was late evening Saturday and he was like I’ll take it back and clean in, we’ll come drop it back off and pick up your old one and you just eSign the papers. But I told him let’s go ahead and wait until Monday. I move slow she’s pregnant, not going to stress and clean out my truck just to get it done in 3 hours. If they call back Monday and get me down to $60k I’m sold.

This one does have the 12” touchscreen which I’m also not 100% excited about. Manual controls work better so I can feel where my temperature, AC, heat settings are. But we’ll see. Hopefully.

Burns · Jun 11, 2023

Lambourne said:
It's definitely a data driven industry nowadays, the dealer that responded offered me 30k for my trade-in sight unseen. I also drove by two used car dealers that I know usually buy trade-ins from the dealers and they came up with 31500 and 32000. In both cases they looked at the car for maybe two minutes, then punched the VIN into some application and gave me their offer. I guess whatever the app says the price is is the price these days, not going to get wildly different offers anymore.

They probable put the vin into a site like Manheim, which is a dealer only auction site. It's the quick and dirty way that will give the going rate for cars with the same options. Depending on how much time they took, you can narrow it down by mileage/condition to get a more exact price but they, most likely, just took the mid point and cut off ~10%, or whatever they feel is their margins (so they can break even at auction, if it doesn't sell after sitting on the lot for 6 months+).

I'm not sure how big Manheim is in the EU, but if it's not the biggest player there, I am sure there is someone that does the same thing.

Having access to Manheim was fun. You get to see how much some dealers try to ream people with asking prices, while others go with small markups to get profits in volume. Regardless, even a good dealer is going to take around 15-20% off the top of what you could make selling it yourself.

I may have posted this before, but here is what the Manheim tool looked like, ~10 years ago:

Lambourne · Jun 12, 2023

Burns said:
They probable put the vin into a site like Manheim, which is a dealer only auction site. It's the quick and dirty way that will give the going rate for cars with the same options. Depending on how much time they took, you can narrow it down by mileage/condition to get a more exact price but they, most likely, just took the mid point and cut off ~10%, or whatever they feel is their margins (so they can break even at auction, if it doesn't sell after sitting on the lot for 6 months+).

I'm not sure how big Manheim is in the EU, but if it's not the biggest player there, I am sure there is someone that does the same thing.

Having access to Manheim was fun. You get to see how much some dealers try to ream people with asking prices, while others go with small markups to get profits in volume. Regardless, even a good dealer is going to take around 15-20% off the top of what you could make selling it yourself.

I may have posted this before, but here is what the Manheim tool looked like, ~10 years ago:

View attachment 477573

Yea I've been digging around a bit more and found the software suite that most of them use and although most of the data is behind a subscription it did let me run my own car and it spit out 31450 so that's pretty much exactly what the used car dealers offered.

Pretty amazing to see what's possible these days, it'll do valuations but also track valuations across multiple dealers in a network so they all know what offers have been made on it, compose advertisements, list the car for quick bids so they can get some offers from other dealers during your test drive etc.

Rajaah · Jun 14, 2023

Got an insurance/maybe legal? question for

Cad or anyone else.

Had a sideswipe incident in my car a few weeks ago. Nobody knows how to let anyone merge around here. I was pulling from left lane to right lane with my blinker on and the guy in the right lane was speeding so he went from way behind me to right up where I was in like a second without stopping (I guess to block me from getting over), and in the process he knocked off my front passenger bumper. Said it was my fault for changing lanes but we just kinda agreed to let insurance deal with it. Police weren't called because we were both kind of whatever at the time, I just wanted to get back to my place and he just wanted to get back to his work delivery.

Personally I would say it was 50/50 on blame, I deserve at least 50% of the blame for not being careful enough changing lanes (and accounting for other people speeding up) but the other guy deserves some for driving like an asshole and speeding on what is more or less a residential street. Going to guess he sped up to about 45+ MPH on a street where the speed limit is 30.

In any case, now that I've explained the situation, the question: Got a letter in the mail from the other guy's insurance company Arbella. Actually, he was driving a work truck so I'm guessing it's the business' insurance company. The letter basically says that they're trying to make a judgment on the incident and need my side of the story, with a form enclosed for me to fill out telling them my version of what happened.

Now I'm thinking this is fine, I'll tell them what happened and they'll figure out who pays what for their repair, between their insurance and my insurance. I've got Geico and they cover up to 10k in repairs for another vehicle under this circumstance, so hopefully I won't actually have to shell out anything over this.

However my mom tells me I should ignore their letter and not respond to it, just let the insurance companies deal with it. She said that if I fill the form out and give them any information at all they'll use it against me. Essentially, that it isn't a "we need your side of the story" so much as them digging for anything they can stick me on (aka try to make me pay for it so they don't have to). But I feel like if I don't answer, THAT will probably get me sued more than answering it will. Either way I'd be honest with them about what happened and I'm sure they could pick it apart to cast me in the wrong for changing lanes.

I think my mom is wrong, but often when I think she's wrong she turns out to be right. So uh should I answer this insurance questionnaire or what?

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Car ?'s

mkopec

Axiel

Molten Core Raider

Cad

scientia potentia est

sleevedraw

Revolver Ocelot

ToeMissile

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer

mkopec

Cad

scientia potentia est

Axiel

Molten Core Raider

Cad

scientia potentia est

Axiel

Molten Core Raider

Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider

Cad

scientia potentia est

Kobayashi

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness

ToeMissile

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer

Lambourne

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness

Burns

Avatar of War Slayer

Lambourne

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Rajaah

Honorable Member