Car ?'s

Burren · Sep 29, 2023

Lambourne said:
New car sales YTD figures for .NL, market is definitely shifting. Full EV almost 30% market share, Tesla is around 12,000 so about 16% of the EV market share. Gas price shock last year and the price cuts probably helped Tesla a lot, they almost 10x their number of sales this year compared to 2022.

Gasoline 83400
Hybrid 94600
EV 74700
Diesel 3000

Much of this is driven by fiscal stimulus (diesel car ownership being heavily taxed, while EV and hybrid cars get a lower or zero rate) and gasoline costing the equivalent of well over $8/gallon. Diesel cars in particular are going extinct, they sold over 100,000 per year a decade ago.

Norway (which has even more punishing taxes) 83% of new cars sold this year are EV, 90% with plug-in hybrids added.

View attachment 492799

Tesla looks to sell about 20,000 model Y's in Norway this year, which is a shitload compared to the 200,000 in the US when you consider the US has 60 times the population. US will probably see a similar trend a few years down the line, being a large country it's going to take a lot more time to get the charging network up to scale but with directed stimulus a lot can change in a decade.

Kind of going to be hilarious when the EV frenzy can’t be sustained, the prices end up being the same as ICE, and the inconvenience gets to people.

Control · Sep 29, 2023

Lambourne said:
New car sales YTD figures for .NL, market is definitely shifting. Full EV almost 30% market share, Tesla is around 12,000 so about 16% of the EV market share. Gas price shock last year and the price cuts probably helped Tesla a lot, they almost 10x their number of sales this year compared to 2022.

Gasoline 83400
Hybrid 94600
EV 74700
Diesel 3000

Much of this is driven by fiscal stimulus (diesel car ownership being heavily taxed, while EV and hybrid cars get a lower or zero rate) and gasoline costing the equivalent of well over $8/gallon. Diesel cars in particular are going extinct, they sold over 100,000 per year a decade ago.

Norway (which has even more punishing taxes) 83% of new cars sold this year are EV, 90% with plug-in hybrids added.

View attachment 492799

Tesla looks to sell about 20,000 model Y's in Norway this year, which is a shitload compared to the 200,000 in the US when you consider the US has 60 times the population. US will probably see a similar trend a few years down the line, being a large country it's going to take a lot more time to get the charging network up to scale but with directed stimulus a lot can change in a decade.

Doesn't Norway tax gas cars at like 100+%? Does NL do that too? When a Tesla is about the same price as an entry-level shitbox, no wonder people jump.

Lambourne · Sep 29, 2023

Control said:
Doesn't Norway tax gas cars at like 100+%? Does NL do that too? When a Tesla is about the same price as an entry-level shitbox, no wonder people jump.

In Norway it's pretty much like that with their 10k one-time registration tax and 25% VAT EVs are exempt from.

In NL it's not that extreme, there is a one time purchase tax that is based on the car's CO2 emissions comes to 3-9k for most midsize gasoline cars. For perspective, a model Y LR is about the same price out the door as an entry level BMW 3 series gasoline powered sedan, both just over 50k.

The main kicker is the road use tax that comes to around 1-2k/yr for most cars which EVs are currently exempt from. Gas being over $8/gal is another factor. There's also an inherent advantage in that EVs are more efficient with their fuel (less of the energy you put into the car is lost as waste heat compared to gasoline cars). Between those I save around 3-4k/yr driving an EV for my commute over a gasoline car.

I'm fully expecting the tax advantages to lessen over time, that's just the reality of how governments work. I'm not driving an EV for ideological reasons, for me it was mostly about cost savings and being generally interested in cars and wanting to give the tech a try. I've owned multiple cars all my life so I don't need one car to do it all.

Punko · Sep 29, 2023

An M4 costs 20k more in NL then it does in Belgium, just because NL taxes are retarded.

Cad · Sep 29, 2023

Burren said:
Kind of going to be hilarious when the EV frenzy can’t be sustained, the prices end up being the same as ICE, and the inconvenience gets to people.

Have had EVs for going on 7 years now, I'm waiting for the inconvenience to get to me too.

Punko · Sep 29, 2023

Lambourne said:
In Norway it's pretty much like that with their 10k one-time registration tax and 25% VAT EVs are exempt from.

In NL it's not that extreme, there is a one time purchase tax that is based on the car's CO2 emissions comes to 3-9k for most midsize gasoline cars. For perspective, a model Y LR is about the same price out the door as an entry level BMW 3 series gasoline powered sedan, both just over 50k.

The main kicker is the road use tax that comes to around 1-2k/yr for most cars which EVs are currently exempt from. Gas being over $8/gal is another factor. There's also an inherent advantage in that EVs are more efficient with their fuel (less of the energy you put into the car is lost as waste heat compared to gasoline cars). Between those I save around 3-4k/yr driving an EV for my commute over a gasoline car.

I'm fully expecting the tax advantages to lessen over time, that's just the reality of how governments work. I'm not driving an EV for ideological reasons, for me it was mostly about cost savings and being generally interested in cars and wanting to give the tech a try. I've owned multiple cars all my life so I don't need one car to do it all.

Lets look at the economic reality:

Europe does not have the infrastructure to support a high degree of electrical vehicles. Power generation and distribution capabilities are insufficient, along with charging stations.

The average car costs far less then an equivallent EV.

The current taxes on petrol and diesel will get shifted to EVs.

It is all a load of bullshit and when Europe inevitably starts taxing EVs the entire sector will crash.

mkopec · Sep 29, 2023

Punko said:
Lets look at the economic reality:

Europe does not have the infrastructure to support a high degree of electrical vehicles. Power generation and distribution capabilities are insufficient, along with charging stations.

The average car costs far less then an equivallent EV.

The current taxes on petrol and diesel will get shifted to EVs.

It is all a load of bullshit and when Europe inevitably starts taxing EVs the entire sector will crash.

This pretty much same around the world. There is going to be a tipping point in every country if the trend continues. Then what will happen is electric prices will skyrocket, they will be burning more fossils to keep up with demand, because thats where most of the power in almost every country comes from and places will have way more power blackouts and brownouts. Tthe current systems and infrastructure are not set up to have millions and millions of cars plugged in charging every night. SO gov will keep subsidizing this shit because of "climate change" and who really subsidizes this shit? You and I with our taxes.

Kirun · Sep 29, 2023

Cad said:
Have had EVs for going on 7 years now, I'm waiting for the inconvenience to get to me too.

Once they overtake or massively compete with ICE and gas tax revenue in states falls off of a cliff, they'll either add a massive mileage tax on EVs or a "power" tax on your electric bill.

Lanx · Sep 29, 2023

Lambourne said:
In Norway it's pretty much like that with their 10k one-time registration tax and 25% VAT EVs are exempt from.

In NL it's not that extreme, there is a one time purchase tax that is based on the car's CO2 emissions comes to 3-9k for most midsize gasoline cars. For perspective, a model Y LR is about the same price out the door as an entry level BMW 3 series gasoline powered sedan, both just over 50k.

The main kicker is the road use tax that comes to around 1-2k/yr for most cars which EVs are currently exempt from. Gas being over $8/gal is another factor. There's also an inherent advantage in that EVs are more efficient with their fuel (less of the energy you put into the car is lost as waste heat compared to gasoline cars). Between those I save around 3-4k/yr driving an EV for my commute over a gasoline car.

I'm fully expecting the tax advantages to lessen over time, that's just the reality of how governments work. I'm not driving an EV for ideological reasons, for me it was mostly about cost savings and being generally interested in cars and wanting to give the tech a try. I've owned multiple cars all my life so I don't need one car to do it all.

you weren't saving money, gov't was artifically forcing your hand

Cad · Sep 29, 2023

Kirun said:
Once they overtake or massively compete with ICE and gas tax revenue in states falls off of a cliff, they'll either add a massive mileage tax on EVs or a "power" tax on your electric bill.

Okay. And so?

Kirun · Sep 29, 2023

Cad said:
Okay. And so?

And so they stop being "economically" viable at that point and essentially just become a "luxury" vehicle?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I've owned plenty of cars for performance and/or appearance reasons. But the cost of fuel is a massive reason why many people purchase one currently.

Cad · Sep 29, 2023

Kirun said:
And so they stop being "economically" viable at that point and essentially just become a "luxury" vehicle?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I've owned plenty of cars for performance and/or appearance reasons. But the cost of fuel is a massive reason why many people purchase one currently.

Literally nothing to do with why I bought one, it's just a nice perk. I had a 997.2 Turbo that got like 12mpg before I bought my first Tesla.

It's a nice perk but I like them because they are fast as fuck, never go to the gas station, can zoom around and make no noise, no gears, and launching them is fun as shit.

Kirun · Sep 29, 2023

Cad said:
can zoom around and make no noise

Fucker · Sep 29, 2023

mkopec said:
This pretty much same around the world. There is going to be a tipping point in every country if the trend continues. Then what will happen is electric prices will skyrocket, they will be burning more fossils to keep up with demand, because thats where most of the power in almost every country comes from and places will have way more power blackouts and brownouts. Tthe current systems and infrastructure are not set up to have millions and millions of cars plugged in charging every night. SO gov will keep subsidizing this shit because of "climate change" and who really subsidizes this shit? You and I with our taxes.

No dog in the ev fight.

Hilarious that CA is going to make cars there have bidirectional charging so they can even out fluctuations in power demand. At least that is what they are saying now. Imagine going out to your previously charged car and seeing that battery has no juice left or not enough to go to work. They say they won't do this, but we all know they will.

Of course, the big laugh is they will be using electricity YOU paid for to charge your neighbor's EV and run their AC.

The big picture is the trouble with giving someone else access to your ability to charge. Go out to check on charge, and panel to see you are in a charging queue. Your place in queue is 98924, please stand by....

mkopec · Sep 29, 2023

Fucker said:
No dog in the ev fight.

Hilarious that CA is going to make cars there have bidirectional charging so they can even out fluctuations in power demand. At least that is what they are saying now. Imagine going out to your previously charged car and seeing that battery has no juice left or not enough to go to work. They say they won't do this, but we all know they will.

Of course, the big laugh is they will be using electricity YOU paid for to charge your neighbor's EV and run their AC.

The big picture is the trouble with giving someone else access to your ability to charge. Go out to check on charge, and panel to see you are in a charging queue. Your place in queue is 98924, please stand by....

Cant even understand why anyone would want to live in that shit lib hellhole. Sure the weather, but all the layers of BS that comes with it, no thanks.

Burnem Wizfyre · Sep 29, 2023

Kirun said:

Can’t believe I agree with Kirun, I intentionally made my truck louder because fuck you (not you kirun, everyone) is why.

Lanx · Sep 29, 2023

mkopec said:
Cant even understand why anyone would want to live in that shit lib hellhole. Sure the weather, but all the layers of BS that comes with it, no thanks.

a few of our cucked forumbros have a career or family that will not move

i sympatize, mine and wifes entire family line is based in nyc, if nyc flooded like today, we'd literally only have each and inherit a lot of water logged houses, lulz

states can do anything they want to make you pay, like i think rn texas has an ev registration tax/fee

once other states see that texas is milking loads of ev registration fees, other states will follow with

Burns · Sep 29, 2023

I still dream of getting an EV and using Raspberry Pi to control playing the motorcycle trombone sound, on a bullhorn under the car, tied to how fast the car is going (or if it can somehow be tied to the gas peddle).

Reference video:

mkopec · Sep 29, 2023

Lanx said:
a few of our cucked forumbros have a career or family that will not move

i sympatize, mine and wifes entire family line is based in nyc, if nyc flooded like today, we'd literally only have each and inherit a lot of water logged houses, lulz

Yeah I know, but still, I would do everything under my power to move the fuck out of W coast. Even if it meant taking a pay cut, which would prob be a pay raise in other states because of cost of living.

I will add that I have no fight in the EV bullshit either. In fact I would not mind one to tool around in since now I work mostly from home and way less mileage. But I can also see it for what it is, its marketed as this save the environment thing which its nothing of the sort.

BrutulTM · Sep 29, 2023

Lambourne said:
In Norway it's pretty much like that with their 10k one-time registration tax and 25% VAT EVs are exempt from.

In NL it's not that extreme, there is a one time purchase tax that is based on the car's CO2 emissions comes to 3-9k for most midsize gasoline cars. For perspective, a model Y LR is about the same price out the door as an entry level BMW 3 series gasoline powered sedan, both just over 50k.

The main kicker is the road use tax that comes to around 1-2k/yr for most cars which EVs are currently exempt from. Gas being over $8/gal is another factor. There's also an inherent advantage in that EVs are more efficient with their fuel (less of the energy you put into the car is lost as waste heat compared to gasoline cars). Between those I save around 3-4k/yr driving an EV for my commute over a gasoline car.

I'm fully expecting the tax advantages to lessen over time, that's just the reality of how governments work. I'm not driving an EV for ideological reasons, for me it was mostly about cost savings and being generally interested in cars and wanting to give the tech a try. I've owned multiple cars all my life so I don't need one car to do it all.

I wonder if range anxiety is less in Europe than in the US since the countries are smaller. I mean it's pretty unusual for an American to actually take a long road trip covering hundreds of miles per day but we always think of it as something we might do. If you live in a country that's 200 miles across maybe you don't think of 300 miles of range as being that limiting.

Cad said:
Have had EVs for going on 7 years now, I'm waiting for the inconvenience to get to me too.

Everyone thinks about having an EV in the context of driving from coast to coast on the back roads but people don't actually do that. The way people actually use cars (commuting to work, getting groceries, taking kids to soccer practice) the EV is way more convenient since you leave the garage every morning with a full tank and never have to stop to fill up at all.

Search

Car ?'s

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Control

Bronze Baronet of the Realm

Lambourne

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Punko

Macho Ma'am

Cad

scientia potentia est

Punko

Macho Ma'am

mkopec

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor

Lanx

Cad

scientia potentia est

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor

Cad

scientia potentia est

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor

Fucker

Log Wizard

mkopec

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard

Lanx

Burns

Avatar of War Slayer

mkopec

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.