Carnival Row

Lithose · Sep 1, 2019

Khane said:
What you call "SJW" is a tale as old as time. This isn't some new formula for storytelling.

Class systems are a fact of life. And this show is definitely drawing on Victorian era British class structures. If you wanna treat it as some high fantasy allegory for Trump's America then by all means, don't watch it.

A story about class or oppression are not "SJW stuff". What is "SJW stuff" is when the characters in those situations are vessels to peddle propaganda, or a specific narrative rather than organic, multifaceted people. Its pretty easy to tell these things apart. In this case, are the Fae noble, hard working people who are wholly good and do nothing wrong and are only oppressed by evil, evil caricatures of men who only act upon narrow, shallow traits such as greed and ignore bigotry? Is there a bunch of really weird double think, like the noble savages (Fae) being super enlightened, wise and amazing but also being completely inept, naive and helpless in the face of the ignorant, stupid men who somehow, despite their stupidity and selfish self destructive behavior, have 'lucked into' fabulous technology and other cultural advances that almost seems disconected from them because of how terrible, and idiotic they all act?

If so, you might be watching SJW shit. If, however, the "sides" make sense, if you feel like, when watching humans, it makes sense they hold the technology they do and the cultural advances they do which allow them to outclass the Fae and if the Fae show some shitty qualities and bigotry that mirror humanities own, or even some actual negative traits which might help explain their situation without blaming everything on man..You might be watching an actual story where the author is trying to mythologize real events so he/she can make sense of them, and tries to make the actions of every side seem..human.

I'll tell you though, the notes so far about how the Fae had amazing civilizations for a thousand years and were just super smart, strong, and amaze-balls but somehow still lost to the bumbling, selfish humans...does not bode well. That's typically noble savage territory.

LachiusTZ · Sep 1, 2019

Lithose said:
A story about class or oppression are not "SJW stuff". What is "SJW stuff" is when the characters in those situations are vessels to peddle propaganda, or a specific narrative rather than organic, multifaceted people. Its pretty easy to tell these things apart. In this case, are the Fae noble, hard working people who are wholly good and do nothing wrong and are only oppressed by evil, evil caricatures of men who only act upon narrow, shallow traits such as greed and ignore bigotry? Is there a bunch of really weird double think, like the noble savages (Fae) being super enlightened, wise and amazing but also being completely inept, naive and helpless in the face of the ignorant, stupid men who somehow, despite their stupidity and selfish self destructive behavior, have 'lucked into' fabulous technology and other cultural advances that almost seems disconected from them because of how terrible, and idiotic they all act?

If so, you might be watching SJW shit. If, however, the "sides" make sense, if you feel like, when watching humans, it makes sense they hold the technology they do and the cultural advances they do which allow them to outclass the Fae and if the Fae show some shitty qualities and bigotry that mirror humanities own, or even some actual negative traits which might help explain their situation without blaming everything on man..You might be watching an actual story where the author is trying to mythologize real events so he/she can make sense of them, and tries to make the actions of every side seem..human.

I'll tell you though, the notes so far about how the Fae had amazing civilizations for a thousand years and were just super smart, strong, and amaze-balls but somehow still lost to the bumbling, selfish humans...does not bode well. That's typically noble savage territory.

My problem is I have reached saturation, and anything that is approximately political / SJW will be lens'd as such.

I cant mindlessly enjoy a vehicle of propaganda right now. I'll likely watch this at some point in the future, but there is no reason for me to watch it right now if every 15 minutes I'm going to be rolling my eyes at some fucking SJW nonsense.

The trailer peaked my interest, others echo'd my sentiment, I stated I had the same reservations, subsequent posts reinforced those concerns.

We all have our tropes,

Khane is just going through the motions of his.

Khane · Sep 1, 2019

In the 5 episodes I've watched it's a typical class based society during a time of war. In a high fantasy setting mixed with a bit of steampunk. You are free to inject whatever your own social beliefs and hangups are into the story all you want.

One question. How many episodes has Lachius watched? How about you Lithose

Lithose · Sep 1, 2019

Khane said:
In the 5 episodes I've watched it's a typical class based society during a time of war. In a high fantasy setting mixed with a bit of steampunk. You are free to inject whatever your own social beliefs and hangups are into the story all you want.

One question. How many episodes has Lachius watched? How about you Lithose

None, yet. Wife and I are going to watch it during the week. Was checking the thread to see if I should even bother. The thing is, I love urban fantasy (And steam punk), its probably my favorite genre to see magic and technology clash. Or even watching young civilizations clash with old ones, "first contact" type stuff (I love the contrast technology creates). But a really important aspect of making that genre work is writing that attempts to humanize people as much as possible and give everyone depth, as well as really well thought out world structure that helps explain the differences in technology and civilizations.

Both sides have to make sense, in other words. If men are presented as wholly corrupt and evil, while the less advanced civilization is noble and pure and has a ton of other almost magical advantages but still somehow are the underdogs because they were enlightened enough to not develop technology (Technology being synonymous with greed/evil is the WORST aspect of this trope), it just takes me right out of it. I genuinely can't stand the endless cynicism toward the modern world, and reverence for the natural world as if the nature is wholly good/wonderful. And as said, the epitome of this is when a race has every advantage (They are super strong, have magical powers ect) and have only seemingly not developed technology because they need to be closer to wonderful "nature", because that's the romantic trope being pushed. (And to be fair, this was a cliche long before "SJW" shit--SJW shit is just the latest version of it. This mainly stemmed from the Romantic period and the reaction to industrialization/enlightenment, where those latter forces were seen as evil by Romantic writers.)

So far from what people have said in this thread, wondering how the Fae could have lost given they are stronger, can fly and have super-amazing cities, makes me wonder. But it also seems like the Fae are flawed and "humanized", so I'm going to give it a try. (Edit: A more gangs of New York type vibe is great, as it doesn't romanticize the underclass, it shows them as mean, oppressive and violent as well as victims of the same--IE very "human".)

LachiusTZ · Sep 1, 2019

The answer to your question has already been posted, at least once.

If you need further assistance let me know

Khane · Sep 1, 2019

Lithose said:
None, yet. Wife and I are going to watch it during the week. Was checking the thread to see if I should even bother. The thing is, I love urban fantasy (And steam punk), its probably my favorite genre to see magic and technology clash. Or even watching young civilizations clash with old ones, "first contact" type stuff (I love the contrast technology creates, stories that let people see how magical technology is by illustrating the experience from an outside/less advanced perspective). But a really important aspect of making that genre work is writing that attempts to humanize people as much as possible and give everyone depth, as well as really well thought out world structure that helps explain the differences in technology and civilizations.

Both sides have to make sense, in other words. If men are presented as wholly corrupt and evil, while the less advanced civilization is noble and pure and has a ton of other almost magical advantages but still somehow are the underdogs because they were enlightened enough to not develop technology (Technology being synonymous with greed/evil is the WORST aspect of this trope), it just takes me right out of it. I genuinely can't stand the endless cynicism toward the modern world, and reverence for the natural world as if the nature is wholly good/wonderful. And as said, the epitome of this is when a race has every advantage (They are super strong, have magical powers ect) and have only seemingly not developed technology because they need to be closer to wonderful "nature", because that's the romantic trope being pushed. (And to be fair, this was a cliche long before "SJW" shit--SJW shit is just the latest version of it. This mainly stemmed from the Romantic period and the reaction to industrialization/enlightenment, where those latter forces were seen as evil by Romantic writers.)

So far from what people have said in this thread, wondering how the Fae could have lost given they are stronger, can fly and have super-amazing cities, makes me wonder. But it also seems like the Fae are flawed and "humanized", so I'm going to give it a try. (Edit: A more gangs of New York type vibe is great, as it doesn't romanticize the underclass, it shows them as mean, oppressive and violent as well as victims of the same--IE very "human".)

I'm not finished with it yet but the story seems to have a lot of depth and is not at all concerned with nobility and martyrdom fighting against despotic fascism or anything like that. You'll be able to draw your own opinions when you start watching it but the story and characters have a lot of depth thus far, with a greater, seemingly lovecraftian evil lurking in the shadows.

I find it compelling with good characters, good acting, and good dialogue. The question I raised about the fae being overrun so easily even though they can fly has yet to be answered in more than a "their tech sucks" fashion but they haven't been painted as a highly enlightened, ancient race. More like naive, stupid isolationists.

Lithose · Sep 1, 2019

Qhue said:
**the story is very much anchored in the plight of the Irish and Italian immigrants to America and it's amazing that people have forgotten how pissed off people were in the Victorian age about the 'micks and wops' coming into the picture. Taking their jobs and with their filthy Catholicism etc. Hell the simple matter of the Fae having Irish accents locks that down...

I don't think most people have forgotten. We just have not romanticized Italians and Irish a ton--a lot of Italians and Irish were huge assholes with deep chips on their shoulder, many were also good people. I should know, they are in my family. We didn't treat them like helpless victims, and because of that they earned their place at the table--respect was earned through the conflict and eventual conessions. The pressure they faced forced them to change and their fight forced America to change, both for the better. There is a reason why Kennedy, despite being very Catholic, only shook the Pope's hand--because proving where his highest loyalties were, was important.

I think that element of how the conflict changed both sides for the better and created something new, is often lost in retelling that attempt to romanticize the plight in a simple oppressor/victim dichotomy. And its one of the things that often makes these stories...bad. Hopefully that's not the case here, need a little Irish gang action, and fears of Catholic terrorism to lend some rationality to the natives for being aggressively skeptical and what not. It sounds like that might be the case, excited to watch it.

j00t · Sep 1, 2019

i'm only a few episodes in, but i have yet to see anything inherently "SJW." I've seen class based politics. while those can seem similar on the surface, they aren't. i'm also a big fantasy nerd so a lot of this all just instantly makes sense. the fae races are intrinsically stronger and wiser, while humans are brash and inventive. humans are also the youngest race so they feel like they have a little bit of a complex about it. despite orcs always being considered the most war-like race, it's actually humans. a gnome will invent some really goofy, but really helpful piece of technology, humans will weaponize it.

the fae lived for however long they did without the need for inventing things past the bronze age, basically, whereas humans just can't stop breeding and inventing.

j00t · Sep 1, 2019

Lithose said:
I don't think most people have forgotten. We just have not romanticized Italians and Irish a ton--a lot of Italians and Irish were huge assholes with deep chips on their shoulder, many were also good people. I should know, they are in my family. We didn't treat them like helpless victims, and because of that they earned their place at the table--respect was earned through the conflict and eventual conessions. The pressure they faced forced them to change and their fight forced America to change, both for the better. There is a reason why Kennedy, despite being very Catholic, only shook the Pope's hand--because proving where his highest loyalties were, was important.

I think that element of how the conflict changed both sides for the better and created something new, is often lost in retelling that attempt to romanticize the plight in a simple oppressor/victim dichotomy. And its one of the things that often makes these stories...bad. Hopefully that's not the case here, need a little Irish gang action, and fears of Catholic terrorism to lend some rationality to the natives for being aggressively skeptical and what not. It sounds like that might be the case, excited to watch it.

maybe i'm naive and too much of a patriot, but i think this is the exact reason why america is so great. we don't like something and we fight about it until it gets better. i mean, it makes us insufferable, and it's often taken WAAAAAY too far, but it's built into our DNA to not shy away from conflict, and conflict is the barrier to resolution.

Cybsled · Sep 1, 2019

Lithose said:
I'll tell you though, the notes so far about how the Fae had amazing civilizations for a thousand years and were just super smart, strong, and amaze-balls but somehow still lost to the bumbling, selfish humans...does not bode well. That's typically noble savage territory.

The Inca/Aztec/Mayan had pretty impressive civilizations and had a great grasp of architecture, math, and astronomy...but they never invented certain things (like gunpowder or the wheel for the Inca) and never really got a chance to adopt it or adapt it and the Conquistadors ran all over them. The invading sultans used gunpowder cannons to own the fuck out of Constantinople (which Constantinople didn't really have anything to match with). Advanced tanks during WW1 accelerated the breaking of the trench warfare stalemate where just troops alone could not.

You can have a great civilization, but all it takes is the opposing side to have technology you have no answer for and the tide of battle can rapidly change.

Plus as others have pointed out, it's the typical fantasy trope of "young humans begin to outdo all the elves/dwarves/etc because they are short lived, impulsive, but clever". I mean shit, that's essentially the basis for LOTR lol.

As for your 2nd question, there are plenty of asshole fae shown in the show. A cult that seems to be more or less a standin for Anarchist movements in the 19th/early 20th century. Another standin for essentially the street gangs/early mafia. Plenty of animosity on both sides. It isn't all just humans saying "fuck the fae", you have fae saying that as well. Of course, in a lopsided power structure, the oppressed class usually has to bend over and take it to increase their odds of survival, so you see a lot more subservience.

Khane · Sep 1, 2019

Yea the impression I get is the fae isolated themselves because they are much older and had no need for human invention or interaction with other races. The humans then invaded their lands to plunder the resources and the fae found themselves holding their hats in their hands.

But the humans who actually invaded are still shrouded in mystery at the point I'm at. They are only mentioned and shown in a handful of scenes.

Lithose · Sep 1, 2019

Cybsled said:
The Inca/Aztec/Mayan had pretty impressive civilizations and had a great grasp of architecture, math, and astronomy...but they never invented certain things (like gunpowder or the wheel for the Inca) and never really got a chance to adopt it or adapt it and the Conquistadors ran all over them. The invading sultans used gunpowder cannons to own the fuck out of Constantinople (which Constantinople didn't really have anything to match with). Advanced tanks during WW1 accelerated the breaking of the trench warfare stalemate where just troops alone could not.

You can have a great civilization, but all it takes is the opposing side to have technology you have no answer for and the tide of battle can rapidly change.

The thing is, you're right that's the popular understanding of history (And its what most authors I'm sure go off of) but it grossly overstates the effect of technology. (Wrote a longer explination of why technology as a cause is overstated but didn't want the post to be long, just love the history so wanted to write

. TLDR: In Spain's case, disease and diplomacy killed the Aztecs and in fact most native tribes. The Europeans turned them against each other by exploiting centuries old grudges and the power imbalances left due to the population being radically altered by disease. Byzantine was beaten down by centuries of war/corruption, the fabled Cannons were actually German/Hungarian, not Turkish, the Ottoman's just had the money to buy them.).

The Aztecs, for example. 90% of their population was wiped out by disease. When the Conquistadors arrived we have accounts of entire cities being empty (A lot of the original explorer's journals were confounded by how "empty" the land was, despite evidence of towns/cities/people). Native Americans had a significant founder effect due to the small population which crossed the land bridge, they were far less genetically diverse than "old world" people. Their genetics made them extremely vulnerable to "old world" disease (Which had been applying selection pressure to Europeans for centuries by this point).

Then, of course, the Aztecs were also...huge assholes, who ritualistically butchered their opponents in massive genocides. After they conquered a people, they would often simply select towns to build Tzompantli--giant skull racks (These racks contained women, and children from conquered Tribes and nearest we can tell the Amazons did this...annually). Whoever survived, they enslaved. Their slave class was robust. Their client states hated them for this, and the moment the Spanish arrived, they asked the Conqustadors for support to kill the Aztecs. So yeah, the Aztecs had an impressive civilization, in fact they were more advanced than a lot of people understand. But they were also deeply, deeply flawed (Had a lot of enemies) and a natural force wiped them out--there was a good reason why they couldn't adapt quickly enough to the Spanish technological advantage.

For Constantinople, the Cannons were able to destroy a wall that had held for centuries, yes. But by that point, Rome (As we know it Byzantine) had lost all of its territory and was surrounded by the Ottoman's. The city was deeply corrupt and could barely function anymore. Civil wars, and in fighting, as well as literally centuries of war with invading Arab Islamic and subsequently Seljuk/Persian empires (The last being the Ottoman's), had all but destroyed the Empire. The Ottoman's alone had been fighting them for 200 years by that point, of near constant invasion/raiding/jihad, with counter Crusades by the Romans. Their empire was dead, and spent, the Cannons allowed for the walls to be broken, but the country was broken long before then. To really nail this point home. The amazing Cannons the Ottoman's used? Yeah, they were a European technology, made by a Hungarian man named Orban, who learned how to make them from the Germans, who originally was there to sell his cannons to the Byzatines; but they were so poor/broke they couldn't afford them. So he went and sold them to the Ottoman's who were camped out front. All the Cannons really did was shorten the time it took to break the city (The siege would have done it in the end, as the Ottoman's had it surrounded, and had a massive naval blockade, as said, they had already won at this point.)

But your post illustrates an excellent point. People tend to simplify down history, a lot. And you're not wrong, technology did have its place in the outcome, and tended to be the most easy to see variable and that was probably why it became the dominant view of what lead to the outcome of X side losing/being conquered. But when you actually create a world and try to write in depth about it, it comes off, often, as not making sense--because you actually get into the intricacies of how things work and you're left wondering "well, why didn't they do this? or that?" (ect). In real history, its often centuries of issues that come together to cause the collapse, the actual conflict that happens is just the feather that broke the camel's back. (Which is why making the 'oppressed'/conquered a "flawed" people is so important, as it actually shows why they could be conquered.)

As for your 2nd question, there are plenty of asshole fae shown in the show. A cult that seems to be more or less a standin for Anarchist movements in the 19th/early 20th century. Another standin for essentially the street gangs/early mafia. Plenty of animosity on both sides. It isn't all just humans saying "fuck the fae", you have fae saying that as well. Of course, in a lopsided power structure, the oppressed class usually has to bend over and take it to increase their odds of survival, so you see a lot more subservience.

Sounds like they crafted them well. Yeah, I mean the underclass is going to suffer more, I just like when shows don't externalize all the issues to create weird caricatures rather than people. Sounds like they avoid that, though. Should be a fun watch.

Gurgeh · Sep 1, 2019

I've just realised I'm suffering PTSD, when I see a GoT actor, I feel like the show is about to turn into shit anytime. Especialy when said actor where involved in the shitty arcs, like Indira Varma...

Khane · Sep 1, 2019

Just finished this. Welp, didn't see that coming.

Qhue · Sep 1, 2019

I like how they treat magic in this world. They even make fun of the term as just being that which humans don't understand. Mind you what does happen goes waaaay beyond what we would count as 'science' but it's rather presented as a sort of scientific practice rather than waving your hands around like swatting flies and mumbling shit.

Cybsled · Sep 1, 2019

Ya, no "lightning bolt! fireball!" shit. You've got alchemy, necromancy, and seeing the future covered. Although the future reading stuff seems to be a mixed bag. They either see shit crystal clear, or it is more vague.

reavor · Sep 1, 2019

Aldarion said:
I'm pretty sensitive to SJW bullshit and havent felt like this was SJW, at least so far (ep 2 or 3). Khane is right: depicting the plight of underclass migrants isnt somehow inherently SJW.

Plus, floating fairy sex.

We were just trying to figure out why most fairy whores dye their hair blue, while few if any non whore fairies do.

No, but they're depicting people having the same issues as today, with migrants doing low wage jobs for peanuts distrupting local job markets and potentially bringing in diseases, as bald angry racists. No nuance in that there might actually be issues with taking in large amounts of migrants.

Cybsled · Sep 2, 2019

reavor said:
No, but they're depicting people having the same issues as today, with migrants doing low wage jobs for peanuts distrupting local job markets and potentially bringing in diseases, as bald angry racists.

Which was the 100% exact same thing in the 19th/20th century of Irish and Italians.

Lanx · Sep 2, 2019

so yea or nay? this has 1star score according to foh reviews

wormie · Sep 2, 2019

Finished it. Pretty good. Some SJW parallels can be drawn but I think that would be a mistake in this case.

leader of the party against the immigrants is a female sand person and the bad guy is a chick. Only stark SJW thing I think is the number of female leaders but it’s not overbearing so it works

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