Casual Rerolled WoW guild - Hyjal Horde

Noodle, that you're even bringing this up means they actually aren't hitting the requirements. They stumbled their way into iLVL but are obviously missing other things they need. You need to draw up requirements for your raid more concretely: ("660 ilvl, no repeated failures on known mechanics, 25k+ dps) and then when that isn't met its easy to have the conversation that goes something like: ("Sorry man, you're not cutting it and you're holding the majority back. You need to go practice in PUGs; if you ever want help reviewing logs let me know.") Anyone who is consistently under-performing and unwilling to practice on off-nights with strangers is a piece of garbage that just wants a carry and free epics. I hate that type of person. Rabble rabble.

EDIT: You're the raid leader. That's where your authority comes from. Every player in your raid ought to meet your expectations; and you must meet theirs,that you will provide them with a functional raid that makes progression.

Eidal_sl said:

Noodle, that you're even bringing this up means they actually aren't hitting the requirements. They stumbled their way into iLVL but are obviously missing other things they need. You need to draw up requirements for your raid more concretely: ("660 ilvl, no repeated failures on known mechanics, 25k+ dps) and then when that isn't met its easy to have the conversation that goes something like: ("Sorry man, you're not cutting it and you're holding the majority back. You need to go practice in PUGs; if you ever want help reviewing logs let me know.") Anyone who is consistently under-performing and unwilling to practice on off-nights with strangers is a piece of garbage that just wants a carry and free epics. I hate that type of person. Rabble rabble.

EDIT: You're the raid leader. That's where your authority comes from. Every player in your raid ought to meet your expectations; and you must meet theirs,that you will provide them with a functional raid that makes progression.

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None of my paying jobs in my 16 year career have ever treated someone like this, let alone any of my many volunteer positions. Keep in mind this is a game people are voluntarily playing and can quit with no repercussions at any time. That kind of attitude might work for the most elite guilds in the world but for a casual little guild raiding in an aging game once a week? Pffft. Have fun trying to recruit that 1% of people who are perfect.

Elsebet_sl said:

None of my paying jobs in my 16 year career have ever treated someone like this, let alone any of my many volunteer positions. Keep in mind this is a game people are voluntarily playing and can quit with no repercussions at any time. That kind of attitude might work for the most elite guilds in the world but for a casual little guild raiding in an aging game once a week? Pffft. Have fun trying to recruit that 1% of people who are perfect.

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Dood we're very distinctly not talking about the average 30-70th percentile raider. We're talking about people doing like 5th percentile DPS and dying repeatedly to dumb mechanics while giving zero shits, asking no one for help, and putting zero extra time in to practice. At a certain point, they're just simply there to get carried and its up to the raid leader to keep his finger on the pulse of the raid and figure out the cost/benefit analysis of benching them. People tend to prefer to play with their peers; if you keep every glue-eating carry in your raid then eventually you'll piss off the raiders you have who actually care and try to improve, and then your raid fail-cascades into oblivion.

EDIT: I didn't even realize you cited employment as an appropriate model for how an MMO raid should function. Fine -- you're telling me that EVERY workplace you've ever worked at in your extensive 16 year career would be like ("This guy sucks horribly, is totally unqualified for what we're trying to do, and his simple presence is aggravating the better employees because they have to work harder. But, we hired him so we're stuck with him for as long as he wants to work here.")

Really? This is the recipe to success?

Most of our mini van dad raid is just fine. I can only think of one person I would ever really consider asking to bounce.

What matters is overall are people happy with the rate of progression and content to carry those who need it. I've seen SO many guilds blow apart over the years and one of the primary catalysts is people who put the effort in to excel get pissed off at the people who don't. Fine, everyone needs to prioritize for themselves. But at the end of the day if the good people keep leaving then you'll be stuck training and retraining, making zero progression, and then the crew implodes.

I personally would not want to play with a consistent under performer who is unabashedly bad who shows up with the expectation other people will do his job for him. The numbers are plain for all to see; how the fuck anyone would log in and be content to suck is beyond me. I realize my way isn't everyone's way, but that's where I'm coming from and I'm a firm proponent in the golden rule.

I absolutely would bench myself long before any raid leader was forced to.

I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. I think most/all of our little hand of misfits is pretty content, at least as far as I know.

Yeah, and I understand I'm the raid leader and whether I wanted to be or not when this started is a moot point now. Part of the reason I have co-leaders is so the blame can be passed around

There were two distinct instances where if it happened today, I'd have to ask the person to leave but that's something I needed to learn. I hope everyone is happy with the progress, I mean we raid 3 hours a week and we came into this mostly geared with Normal Highmaul gear - so the progression is harder on us than a guild that raids a few times a week.

Unfortunately my main requirement is ilvl, and after examining a few sign-ups I noticed at least one was fluffing their ilvl with bag gear But then that player out-performed several others, so I haven't said anything to them. It's a balancing act now. ilvl is just my barrier for entry, after that we watch how people perform.

And I would never call anyone out on here publicly, it's all private stuff. As always, I enjoy the saturday raids and I only got sad in our first week in BRF because I was so excited. Hopefully the minivan crew enjoys it and we'll soon be 10/10N.

I'm hoping some people tonight can join us tomorrow!!! Anyone is invited, I set 650 ilvl as the minimum, but if you're close send me a tell and I'll armory you and see if it's workable.

Eidal_sl said:

Dood we're very distinctly not talking about the average 30-70th percentile raider. We're talking about people doing like 5th percentile DPS and dying repeatedly to dumb mechanics while giving zero shits, asking no one for help, and putting zero extra time in to practice.

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Well someone needs to man up and talk to that person(s) instead of this cloak and dagger drama bullshit. For fucks sake. I come here to read some useful or funny shit and all I see is "You know who you are, baddie" posts.

A Noodle says 'You will not evade me baddie!'
You have been summoned

Zalere_sl said:

Well someone needs to man up and talk to that person(s) instead of this cloak and dagger drama bullshit. For fucks sake. I come here to read some useful or funny shit and all I see is "You know who you are, baddie" posts.

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But it's not drama, at least I don't want any. I posted that I learned my lesson and will need to talk to people in the future - especially if it causes people to not have fun.

I don't need to publicly out people on a forum.

Eidal_sl said:

Dood we're very distinctly not talking about the average 30-70th percentile raider. We're talking about people doing like 5th percentile DPS and dying repeatedly to dumb mechanics while giving zero shits, asking no one for help, and putting zero extra time in to practice. At a certain point, they're just simply there to get carried and its up to the raid leader to keep his finger on the pulse of the raid and figure out the cost/benefit analysis of benching them. People tend to prefer to play with their peers; if you keep every glue-eating carry in your raid then eventually you'll piss off the raiders you have who actually care and try to improve, and then your raid fail-cascades into oblivion.

EDIT: I didn't even realize you cited employment as an appropriate model for how an MMO raid should function. Fine -- you're telling me that EVERY workplace you've ever worked at in your extensive 16 year career would be like ("This guy sucks horribly, is totally unqualified for what we're trying to do, and his simple presence is aggravating the better employees because they have to work harder. But, we hired him so we're stuck with him for as long as he wants to work here.")

Really? This is the recipe to success?

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I'm not disagreeing that a 5th percentile person should get dropped as a liability. I even completely agree with your points about how a very low performer can bring down the morale of a group. I work in a seniority based culture right now and we could easily do away with about 1/3 of the older workforce here. Does that happen? Nope. Is it holding us back a little? Probably. Is it going to destroy the company? Nope. There is always going to be a little dead weight.

Most people I've seen let go in my career have performance problems AND other chronic issues. People are average in general and have strengths and weaknesses. Some ebb and flow in their performance depending on task and time of day/year. In general most people want to be successful. Good people management principles work even in online games. Leadership and culture play a significant role in performance. if I had a person doing low dps but they were a good sport and showed up regularly I'd take the time to see if I could improve them or change their role. If they were nasty, entitled, AND bad, then I'd of course have no issues benching them until that changed. Hard and fast rules when dealing with people seldom work long-term.

I take a longer-term view of guilds. I've seen people play a class poorly, then try a different spec or class and become a good player six months down the road. I guess if all one cares about is progression at any cost then hard elimination rules are fine. I just don't see the world that way anymore.

Noodlemod_sl said:

But it's not drama, at least I don't want any. I posted that I learned my lesson and will need to talk to people in the future - especially if it causes people to not have fun.

I don't need to publicly out people on a forum.

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"Praise in public, scold in private" is a solid management guideline. I like to include as many solid facts/metrics to be as objective as possible when trying to improve performance.

And you have to ask yourself, is this a causal guild for everyone "Give us your tired your, 5th percentile" or is this a progression guild and if people don't measure up, bounce them till they can?

Elsebet_sl said:

"Praise in public, scold in private" is a solid management guideline.

I like to include as many solid facts/metrics to be as objective as possible when trying to improve performance.

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I perfer the mushroom theory to management... Keep them in the dark and cover them in shit.

It will be a "bounce until you can improve" atmosphere, but not as stringent as some other guilds would hold. If someone is so low that it's actually causing us to wipe repeatedly, or they are missing all mechanics, not improving, showing up every 6 weeks, then that person needs a re-evaluation. Right now we don't really have problems with that most of the time. HM made people lazy, BRF is a lot more demanding.

The saturday crew rolls up in 1-2 minivans, pulls up their tube socks, and gets to work.

Check your PMs Noods

Yeah haven't had a chance to respond, to feverishly causing forum drama for no reason

Braen_sl said:

I perfer the mushroom theory to management... Keep them in the dark and cover them in shit.

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Needs more of that spoony Warlock Nihilist.

Hop on Battle/net chat if you can.

And we all need a little forum drama in our lives.. It makes us miss the bygone days of yesteryear...