Diablo 3 - Reaper of Souls

Deathwing

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Gameplay is not the same between level 40 and level 60. I mean, you should have said paragon 1 and paragon 90, but you still would have been wrong. Inherent to farming is that you'll pick up gear along the way that will change how you play. Now, that doesn't work out for all classes, but for some it does, barbs and sorcs especially. And it's a flaw they are hopefully fixing.

As for staying power, can't really trust my opinion. I used to play 1v1 games of Starcraft versus the computer and just use huge fleets of battlecruisers. That's how I spent my free time as a kid playing video games. I would get bored of that shit instantly today. So, I honestly can't be objective about that.

What I don't like is that your posts are kinda dancing around the "good ole days" argument. I disagree that increased video game popularity caused tedium reduction. I think it's coincidence and that this is the natural evolution of gaming.
 

Angry Amadeus_sl

shitlord
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I mentioned that previously, that lack of social element in the AH. And...I don't care. It's just not worth the tedium. If you want socializing, play the game over vent with some friends. Do you remember anyone from trading in D2?

I don't understand your question. Gold is the game's currency.
Actually, yeah; I do. I remember them - some good, some bad - just like I remember people from EQ who always had the good shit in EC tunnel.

"Gold is the game's currency." - what a bloated and untrue statement. $ is the game's currency. Gold buys you potions and other bullshit.
 

Deathwing

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I like how you avoided the part about how I suggested socializing through the actual game instead of incidentally through buying/selling gear. I will fault Blizzard for not having built-in voice communication like WoW does(SC2 too?).

I don't get your comment on currency. You can avoid spending real dollars on this game if you want to. Are you complaining that the RMAH is ruining the game's economy through inflation or whatever?
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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What I don't like is that your posts are kinda dancing around the "good ole days" argument. I disagree that increased video game popularity caused tedium reduction. I think it's coincidence and that this is the natural evolution of gaming.
I'm not going to deny that there's a good portion of "get off my lawn" in my opinion. I wouldnt not say it's a coincidence, and it might very well be the natural evolution of gaming. It is a point we simply disagree on, though. Imo it is caused by gaming becoming a market that is more often driven by the desire to "make good money through games" as opposed to "make money through good games". It's a minor distinction and obviously doesnt apply to the whole industry, but it's there.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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I cannot fathom how people are bitching about getting to respec so easily in this game. I tweak a skill set or even just a rune near every time I play just to try things out. Do you really want to play a character class again 1-60, 4 times through the game, because you got enough gear finally on X build to now support Y build? That's artificial time requirement at it's worst. Yes people did that in D2, but you had ways of bypassing tons of that time investment, which people did, because they DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND ALL THAT TIME GRINDING AGAIN.

Granted I enjoy the GAMEPLAY of D3 well enough, but I haven't even mustered up the desire to level hardcore characters to 60, after getting my normies up there.
so one bad design choice justifys another?

Why does this game even HAVE 4 difficulties, when there is a level cap? That only makes sense if there is a soft level cap like D2, PoE, TL2. That is how poorly thought out this game was. There is no reason for this game to have more then 2 difficulties. normal, inferno. then champion levels fixing the retarded flat level cap.
Since this game doesn't give you all your skills till level 60, yes releveling is complete shit. Hell, leveling the first time was annoying as fuck, as you wait for the skills you WANT to use.
Both D2 and PoE give you full access to all your skills by level 30. IN D2, that is by the end of your first playthrough in normal mode. In PoE, that is currently about act 2 of second playthrough iirc.

Of course, I don't want to relevel a character in this game. it sucks. Its repeatative, and I can't even explore alt SKILL builds I want to, because I can't use them till I unlock them at whatever set level they are. In PoE however I make a new character every damn race. Ive had like 35 characters at "LEAST" between levels 10-30.
Marvel heroes since its being mentioned also has a level 30 access for all skills iirc.

D3 should auto make any new characters level 60. Leveling 1-60 is just a massive waste of time. Gear is useless, and you don't have access to your skills for alt builds, as noted. Its not like those other games where low level items may still be useful. Orbs of all kinds drop at all levels in PoE. uniques might be useful as well. new skins/heroes can drop in Marvel Heroes.
 

Caliane

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Highly differentiated mob types that interact differently with various builds, slowing some builds greatly, while speeding others. Highly differentiated builds that augment how a player moves through the world, and reacts to not just mobs but certain physical limitations in the world. Traps that greatly affect players based on items, skills and other factors--there are many ways to make this question VERY hard to answer. Combine those variables with actual character investment, and some difficulty in experimentation and you have one of the things that literally makes ARPG's fun--trying to answer that question, even though there are hundreds of variables that affect the outcome.

But that's the essence of what I'm talking about. Your post brings upcoreissues with actual game play and then look to an economic solution for a fix, rather than asking what makes it so easy to determine what's best. What makes it easy is the linear nature of gameplay. How horribly narrow our definitions of "power" have become. This is why people look back on even terrible mechanics, like immunities, and wonder what made them a little compelling--it's simple, they were compelling because they made answering these questions, actually, a bit difficult. They added variables to the game that didn't distill it down to "get more X to do Y faster".

And that said, I think Immunities are a terrible mechanic, just FYI. But the nature of those elements of games--the nature of really tossing in tons and tons of variables so it takes either a LONG time to answer what's best, or you never get an answer? Is what makes really good games, in my opinion. Fixing the symptom of that problem, the problem of that question is VERY easy to answer in D3, by sapping items from the economy, is, in my opinion, like putting a bandaid on a tumor. I think they need to dig and see what's causing that linear, and ultimately boring view in the first place (And don't get me wrong, it was NOT a problem D2 had fixed, either--D2 was plagued with it too..But D3 seems to be a step back even from where Blizzard was then in addressing it.)
yeah. It is hard to balance really.
Lets look at another mob skill that forced players to alter their playstyle. Iron Maiden, in the Chaos Sanctuary. Everyone hated that just as much. Particularly barbs of course. Sorcs didn't care.
The thing is, when making these, you need to consider the effects on each class. When this was "end game", it made CS all but off limits to barbs. and everyone farmed the fields or river. Sorcs farmed D.

The risk/reward was probably too much. If instead of instantly killing you.. it just made the mob immune to physical damage or something for a few seconds, it would have probably been better. Leap attack worked well of course. Flayers are another example of dangerous for melee.

Players just all going to "easy" spots is always a danger too. When LoD came out, everyone ran foothills, as it was super easy/safe to farm, and it was not random.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
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I'm enjoying replaying a new character on MP10, with a little AH twinking (just cheap gear with sockets for inferno gem drops) it can still be faceroll but at least you die if you fuck up.

Problem is that I am going to be hitting lv40+ at the end of normal, I will then have to replay the game THREE MORE TIMES to unlock everything. Why? Because it is tacked on and doesn't integrate well with the existing game systems.

They need to remove Nightmare and Hell and have two difficulties; Normal with the storyline and scaling mobs from Act 1 to Act 4 and Inferno with everything being lv63 and no storyline. Then Monster Power can take care of increasing the difficulty level and drops in Normal until you are 60, with it doing the same for endgame too.

All they need to do is work higher iLevel monsters/drops into Monster Power which I can't belive would be that difficult (I'm still getting lv17 gear and low affix monsters at lv30+).
 

Nirgon

Log Wizard
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I know Deathwing is right that it will never happen, but on another note

Just how bad is the PvP they implemented? I won't even think of checking the Blizzard boards to form a decision.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
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I didn't mind leveling through D2 multiple times, since the game didn't feel on rails and didn't force you to skip through horrendous writing every single fucking time. There were only 3 difficulties with fair amount of shortcuts and blasting through all of them was a job for an afternoon and you got some nice goodies on the way from hellforge, maybe some uniques you could sell eventually. If they forced me to go through all 4 difficulties every time I wanted to change class/build in D3, I'd left long time ago. PoE manages it because they give you orbs and skill gems on every new characters and the uniques are often usable far beyond their basic level. Farming Inferno is less painful because don't have to sit on my ass until the baddies had their speech.

I think a happy medium is either PoE system, which lets you undo minor things, but completely changing your build late into the game is pretty expensive, or just make Diablo drop respec token for first kill at every difficulty, account bound preferably.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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You didn't mind leveling in Diablo2 because you just get a rush to the end and sit around leeching XP and get to level 70 in a few hours. Also all cutscenes/dialog are fully skippable in Diablo 3. This is the same trite argument that has been made for the past year that I still don't understand.
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
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Um I have a high level Deadpool and Marvel Heroes is not nearly as good as Diablo 3 unless they made dramatic, dramatic changes
Dunno, DP is pretty boring though. Been playing Hulk & Wolverine lately and it's bretty good. They actually add things to the game too, which is already a vast improvement over D3.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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Never got a rush in D2 but the comment about story being shoved in your face is spot on. D2 had more freedom in that regard, every npc had voiced dialogue you could ask them about just like D3 has. That is fine, but the constant scooby villain interludes have to go after normal, or at least add a toggle.

I would see as it as improvement if they just went and dropped inferno as a difficulty, too. Smooth 1-60 into normal -> nightmare through the 5 acts and start hell at 60 with the difficulty that was inferno. One mode to learn the game and to teach you the nuances of your class, one mode to experiment, find your preferences and get used to more challenging fights (since by then you have all skills and get the last few runes), one mode for "endgame". If it wasnt for the level 1 is useless in nightmare issue they could just cut away normal instead, works the same.
 

Angry Amadeus_sl

shitlord
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You can avoid spending real dollars on this game if you want to.
I disagree with the mindset that this is so easily done. The entirety of this franchise is built around accomplishment and there is sincere psychology around attaining items through discovery and short-cutting that discovery model can have serious consequences for replayability (see: Diablo 3).

I highly suggest reading everything by Ramin Shokrizade. I've talked to him through emails and the guy is at the cutting edge of understanding this psychology.

For instance:



http://gameful.org/group/games-for-c...-diablo-3-rmah

Smedley's Dream Part I & II

(Originally published in 2011, here I predict the outcome of the Diablo 3 Real Money Auction House (RMAH) six months before the public (or I) got a chance to look at it.)

By Ramin Shokrizade

Back in 2005 SOE began an experiment in virtual economics by creating the Station Exchange (http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-sc...change-6131956). The idea was that instead of suffering the ravages of 3rd Party real money transfer activity (RMT3), why not have customers do all of this activity in a host-controlled environment? This would reduce fraud and allow taxation of the virtual shadow economy. At the time I did not see this experiment as being good for gamers, or even for SOE in the long run, but found the experiment an interesting one.

This idea is being revisited soon by Blizzard Entertainment (http://www.gamesradar.com/diablo-iii...on-house-annou... ) in their upcoming Diablo 3 product. If it works it will revolutionize the way games are monetized. Just like if the Station Exchange had worked. These are the exact issues that inspired me to dedicate myself to applied virtual economic work in 2005. Back then I was unable to adequately articulate my concerns, but six years later I am going to attempt to remedy that.

In this paper I will describe some of the pros, cons, and perils of this monetization model. I would like to think that Blizzard has planned for all of these results, but if they have not this may give them forewarning of how their latest venture will turn out.

The Advantages
It is not far fetched to imagine that player trade in a game like Diablo 3 will have a value far in excess of the actual fees charged by Blizzard to play the game. This concept of real player trade of virtual goods is fundamental to the field of virtual economics. I began writing about this in 2000 when I co-wrote this paper with Ashley Dunn at the Los Angeles Times, using only my middle name "Lee" since I worked for SOE at the time: (http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/20/news/mn-21581). Coincidentally, Ashley got both of us into the closed Diablo 2 beta while we were writing the article. I got offers during the beta of as high as $300 per item for virtual goods that were going to be erased at the end of the beta test. No doubt the demand for virtual goods will be just as great almost twelve years later.

The idea that tapping, or even replacing, the secondary market for virtual goods is an attractive one. Many players will engage in second party real money transfers (RMT2) and thus could literally get paid to play Diablo 3. They could make so much money that they quit their jobs to play this game. I have made over $5000 a month doing this in a variety of games where I had to struggle with the inconvenience of using Ebay or such to actually get paid. If Blizzard gets paid for every item that posts, and also again for every item that sells, then all of the RMT2 players will be giving Blizzard a cut on every transaction. Thus if I am making $5000 a month playing D3, then Blizzard might be making around $750 a month hosting my activity in their game, in addition to any game fees.

In the absence of a secure auction house for RMT2, the risk of fraud to both seller and buyer is much higher and thus this AH is supremely attractive to secondary market participants. IGE, in its day, made an amazing amount of money controlling the secondary market and why just give this control (and money) away to a non-contributing entity? Happy secure traders means less customer service headaches to Blizzard, in addition to the promise of potentially double or even triple conventional revenues. Tapping the secondary market allows the application of discriminatory pricing while retail and subscription sales (with a few exceptions like Collectors Editions) do not.

The Disadvantages
Scarcity and prestige are the primary motivators in the RPG genre. They are linked. I describe this relationship in my short "Mona Lisa and the Alchemist" paper. Any virtual good with high scarcity will have high value. If said good is also a superior good, its price can be astronomical. Having possession of said goods brings prestige, especially if the item was "earned". If someone else earned the item then sold it to you, the prestige value is substantially diminished. If there is no way you can prove you earned the item, as in the Diablo 3 model, all prestige is diminished for all participants.

When an item becomes abundant, its value falls. Market forces will cause any item scarce in Diablo 3 to be farmed intensely until it is no longer scarce. In the absence of any mechanisms to control them, this will invite industrial virtual goods farmers (RMT3) to participate in your economy. They are extremely adept at curing scarcity and reducing the real value of virtual goods. This will cause the value of all Diablo 3 goods to drop quickly over time. Initial revenues under this model will be impressively high, leading to great PR opportunities. Every month these revenues will drop at rates in excess of 50%. As this is a geometric progression, virtual goods in the space quickly become worthless.

Thus the economy becomes toast after a few months of RMT3 activity, even if Blizzard benefits from it initially. Prestige related to virtual wealth becomes very low. Those that spend $1000 on goods in the first month will find that in the second month those goods are worth much less than $500 and thus there is no investment value. Once this becomes apparent, there is a strong counter incentive to spend now, as you can get any good for less if you wait a few days.

The result is extremely high revenues initially, which drop rapidly. This has a similar effect on the enjoyment of participants in the game, who will want for nothing and be able to complete the game quickly without ever experiencing scarcity. As scarcity is a primary motivator, retention falls.

The Perils
Anyone that has been active in this industry since 2000 will remember the lessons of both Diablo 2 and Anarchy Online. In both of these games the economies were quickly ravaged by dupes, methods to copy virtual assets. While I was able to come to the rescue of Funcom and several later targets of dupers, it is especially difficult to stop such hacks when the game assets are under local (consumer) control. This was the case in Diablo 2 and duping was the norm in that game's economy. I know because I had plans to make tens of thousands of dollars doing RMT2 in that game (I was in the top 100 world ladder) and it was all wiped out overnight by dupes that made my (and others) goods worthless.

I would like to think that Blizzard, of all companies, learned from this history. If a dupe or similar hack is created (which to me seems likely if not certain), it can be propagated through the D3 AH and wipe out the value of the virtual economy in a matter of days, not months as I described above. Blizzard would then say "It's not our fault, and we are working to remedy the situation as soon as possible". Once a million items get sold through your system, you can't go back and delete them. Perhaps Blizzard knows this and feels that they will profit even in the case of a dupe attack. The obvious losers are their customers, who will lose prestige and equity in their virtual holdings. If the value of their purple con items drops to below the cost to even post them, no one will use the AH. I would imagine this would make customers unhappy and have negative effects on immersion. For a company with very favorable customer perception, this can be costly.

Selling off your economy is really very easy. Protecting your economy is far harder. This is why I wrote "Sustainable Virtual Economies and Business Models" in 2009. For companies like Blizzard so that they would not keep repeating the same mistakes.
 

Deathwing

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Mind giving me the tl;dr?

Going on little bit before that wall of text, trading isn't discovering an item either.
 

Deathwing

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Nah. Not until you convince me it has anything to do with what we're talking about. RMAH, gold AH, and trading all shortcut the "true" method of discovering items: farming.
 

Pyros

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Nah. Not until you convince me it has anything to do with what we're talking about. RMAH, gold AH, and trading all shortcut the "true" method of discovering items: farming.
Just read the first sentence of every paragraph and whatever's bolded and you can get what's being said. Which is basically that RMAH is a good money making tool for Blizzard early on, but as time passes it becomes less interesting since prices drop due to availability, and interest in the game also drops when people are able to acquire everything too easily. Basically what happened.

It wasn't a great idea, and it didn't kill RMT black market either I believe, nor did it kill botting and stuff.
 

Deathwing

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Same would have happened via trading, just would have taken longer.

Either way, it looks like they're attempting to fix the problem without the hamfisted "fix" of outright removal of the AHs.
 

Angry Amadeus_sl

shitlord
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I love that you're absolutely fucking lazy and don't want to read, but then you feel the need to be so agro in your comebacks. That's so 2004, it's beautiful. Did you even EQ?

I think for me, even the thought that an RMAH exists is a real hurdle - I have the money to buy things but I don't necessarily have the time to get paragon 100+ and all that that entails - so it's much easier to imagine just clicking a few buttons and getting 300k+ DPS. Which I really, really hate since I lack all willpower when it comes to Diablo.