DOTA 2

Jozu

Jozu

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League is terrible.

Anyway, how can you accuse low tier players of being "unable" to deny a sniper from getting fed, yet in the same breath suggest they take a tower 3 minutes into the game? One doesnt simply pick Chen and LOL I PUSHED YOUR TOWER and the clock hasnt even hit 5 minutes yet. Or enchantress etc.

So my point is, I think a player must rely on the strengths of their team and simply use common sense to shut down a pub stomper, rather than asking him to play a Chen and tower dive. I know its more complex than that, but usually having success depends entirely on your teammates and how they use their abilities.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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Pyros_sl said:
I think at 16 5 carries could win against that setup even without items.
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You missed the point, its a thought exercise, obviously there is a point in that game where the carries win, if thats lvl 10 or 16 or 25, its not relevant to the notion. Its strictly getting people to think about when their total team power peaks, or any combination of 2 3 4 or 5 heroes in the same place. Its ambiguous in every game of dota depending on picks and how the game plays out.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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Obtenor_sl said:
What you've all said makes a lot of sense but my main issue is when it comes to this:



T3 is a PITA at 20 min specially when there's turtling, practically near impossible to get (at least on pubs) unless you got someone that'll break the turtle (like a Pudge hooking someone out or a kotl spamming Q into their base) in the meantime you got their late game carry eating your creeps that are suiciding on T3. I've been on a lot of games were we don't have a hard late game carry (like Jug for example), we have an awesome early mid game pushing we got all their towers but T3 and we just can't break the turtle, get pushed back, their carry eats those creeps, gets more powerful and then slowly they start pushing back until faceroll.
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Ward outside their base, farm their jungle, and gank someone the minute they become impatient, if lucky you get the most important antipusher or their main dps, You don't need to say push and go hard 5 right down mid, you can control their gold and xp income get a pick (smoke, wrap around, patience) all tend to work in different scenarios and once its a player or skill advantage (like you push bate out darkseer wall, then back off and when its gone you go again.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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Jozu_sl said:
League is terrible.

Anyway, how can you accuse low tier players of being "unable" to deny a sniper from getting fed, yet in the same breath suggest they take a tower 3 minutes into the game? One doesnt simply pick Chen and LOL I PUSHED YOUR TOWER and the clock hasnt even hit 5 minutes yet. Or enchantress etc.

So my point is, I think a player must rely on the strengths of their team and simply use common sense to shut down a pub stomper, rather than asking him to play a Chen and tower dive. I know its more complex than that, but usually having success depends entirely on your teammates and how they use their abilities.
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The point is, is that if you pick a lineup that can be less aggressive than the enemy then you must play defensive to win later, if you pick a lineup to be aggressive, to counter their eventual strength then you have to capitalize on that. Sniper is basically a wet paper bag from minute 1 to 6, he has no escape. Use that to your advantage, sometimes a gank in the first 3-4-5 minutes is what the game needs. You can't make the case that any hero is automatic win.
 
Jozu

Jozu

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Sniper may be garbage for the first 6 minutes, but he can out cs his opponent in low tier fairly easily and can harrass better than most. If he stays patient and uses tower and his laning mate has a stun, he is quite effective early in the game actually. Ganking him is basically the only way to stunt him. Ive seen terrible snipers and its almost always because someone continues roaming and raping his ass.
 
A

an accordion_sl

shitlord
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push strats in pubs

rrr_img_19500.jpg
 
Jozu

Jozu

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Short games are cool I guess. A win is a win.

Nyx Assassin is awesome. Just picked him up and am owning kids with him hardcore. If I can get to 6 without trouble and farm enough to get a dagon, his ult>stun>mana burn>dagon cycle is hilarious and basically rounds anyone early in the game as well as late.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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That's a huge issue with the low level mindset of dota, that a short game isn't as "fun" or good or "legit" as a long game. That's why dota is so varied in pub play compared to the static way that league plays out at basically all brackets. You should think about dota as any game, that when the opportunity to win presents itself, you have to go get it. A ton of games in low skill dota get thrown when a team gets a lead, dicks around, thinks its in the bag, and 30 minutes later they lose to a 300 gpm antimage.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Dandain_sl said:
That's a huge issue with the low level mindset of dota, that a short game isn't as "fun" or good or "legit" as a long game. That's why dota is so varied in pub play compared to the static way that league plays out at basically all brackets. You should think about dota as any game, that when the opportunity to win presents itself, you have to go get it. A ton of games in low skill dota get thrown when a team gets a lead, dicks around, thinks its in the bag, and 30 minutes later they lose to a 300 gpm antimage.
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To be honest, if you one side stomp the enemy team and finish in 15-20mins, I don't find it very fun and that's generally ground to play another game similar to when I lose. I don't want to have the 80mins epic battle type of game everytime, but I want to at least feel like I had to fight for it. That's why LoL or HoN could be very disapointing at times due to surrenders, you'd have people giving up at 10mins waiting for 15-20mins to officially surrender, and it wasn't much fun and it happened even more often. At least people turtle and sometimes come back in dota. I mean sure you played well, won in a short time, executed well, but I personally don't find that THAT fun.

I guess I like them more than winning super hard then having retards solo dive the base, farm the jungle when we're pushing then having the enemy team come back and win, but not by a whole lot.

There is definitely a large difference between lol and dota though, for some reason even at the lowest tier and the non competitive normal matches(as opposed to solo queue which is the ladder system), you'd always have people tryharding copying pro metas and shit even though they were terrible, and people bitching cause you picked a hero for fun even though it was technically a good hero. I had so many people whine, leave or insult me because I was picking Gragas for example for a few weeks before he became super fotm and was obviously nerfed right after, it was obvious the hero was super strong but no pro was playing it so "wtf gragas repick motherfucker I'm afk". Not that it doesn't happen in dota, but in pubs I find there's a lot more freedom/less emphasis on picking the super duper hero. If anything you get the "AM picker" comments, which I guess nowadays at "PL picker" instead. There's a similar issue with laning and such, where in dota you'll see trilanes in pubs but you'll also often see dual lanes old school style, while even in normal people cry like fucking retards if you don't pick a jungler and instead want to dual top.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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I don't enjoy a one sided stomp, but there is a point when the opposing team picks a composition that must be defeated in 30 minutes or you lose, you have to go hard to make that happen, it doesn't automatically happen.
 
Penance

Penance

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Pyros_sl said:
To be honest, if you one side stomp the enemy team and finish in 15-20mins, I don't find it very fun and that's generally ground to play another game similar to when I lose. I don't want to have the 80mins epic battle type of game everytime, but I want to at least feel like I had to fight for it. That's why LoL or HoN could be very disapointing at times due to surrenders, you'd have people giving up at 10mins waiting for 15-20mins to officially surrender, and it wasn't much fun and it happened even more often. At least people turtle and sometimes come back in dota. I mean sure you played well, won in a short time, executed well, but I personally don't find that THAT fun.

I guess I like them more than winning super hard then having retards solo dive the base, farm the jungle when we're pushing then having the enemy team come back and win, but not by a whole lot.

There is definitely a large difference between lol and dota though, for some reason even at the lowest tier and the non competitive normal matches(as opposed to solo queue which is the ladder system), you'd always have people tryharding copying pro metas and shit even though they were terrible, and people bitching cause you picked a hero for fun even though it was technically a good hero. I had so many people whine, leave or insult me because I was picking Gragas for example for a few weeks before he became super fotm and was obviously nerfed right after, it was obvious the hero was super strong but no pro was playing it so "wtf gragas repick motherfucker I'm afk". Not that it doesn't happen in dota, but in pubs I find there's a lot more freedom/less emphasis on picking the super duper hero. If anything you get the "AM picker" comments, which I guess nowadays at "PL picker" instead. There's a similar issue with laning and such, where in dota you'll see trilanes in pubs but you'll also often see dual lanes old school style, while even in normal people cry like fucking retards if you don't pick a jungler and instead want to dual top.
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That was the absolute stupidest thing in LoL. If it wasn't FoTM or one of 20 possible champs that play in tournies, you got a leaver and had to requeu all again until you just caved and picked Nidalee. Than again, LoL is a game for the masses, and the masses will always follow the few.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Penance_sl said:
That was the absolute stupidest thing in LoL. If it wasn't FoTM or one of 20 possible champs that play in tournies, you got a leaver and had to requeu all again until you just caved and picked Nidalee. Than again, LoL is a game for the masses, and the masses will always follow the few.
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Thing is dota also has a tons of people playing, and has an even more active competitive scene(at least it's much easier to catch a dota2 competitive match than a lol one because there's comp dota being played EVERY day). Yet in pubs, while there's some people bitching about bad heroes, most people don't really give a fuck and would rather play pub heroes than comp heroes. Even the highest rating games often have completely worthless competitive heroes. In LoL the requirement to conform to the competitive meta, which at least until recently was also static as all fuck, is really stupid though as it touches every level of the game. I mostly played normal unranked games, which should be the type of games where people don't give a fuck and yet it was just as retarded.

Anyway enough LoL talk. Wonder if we get a new hero this week. Skywrath would be cool, have only seen him once in comp play since he's fairly "recent" but he looked really cool and strong. Hope he'd go to -cm quickly, shake things a bit. TC would work out the same way too. People in dota1 played TC in the offlane as the go to hero for like a year, over windrunner/darkseer.
 
A

an accordion_sl

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I think people will get really mad when skywrath gets put in.

Everyone wants more heroes, but they don't know the mid destruction that is coming.
 
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