DOTA 2

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
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It's for Starladder's own good to have the games played because Navi games always get the most viewers. I don't think Navi planned it, because they had like 2 weeks without any games played at all with Dendi going to USA and probably some other stuff. It's well known problem with the round robin system they are using and unless they change it, we won't see an improvement since the teams at the bottom of the ranking play for shits and giggles instead of money.
 

Delly

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Depends on if Dota2 really wants to be an esport (which it isn't) or stay as an exhibition/entertainment event (which it is).
Da fuck? You must have some tight restrictions on what the definition of esport is. League didn't even have a spectator mode for 2-3 years after release and they still don't have replays. Is it considered an esport?
 

Jovec

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It's an e-sport in the sense that the matches are competitive and money is awarded. It's not an e-sport in the sense that the totality of issues surrounding online play makes the results too subject to randomness and abuse. If all competitive matches were LAN-based then the majority of issues (but not all) go away.

Dandain refers to the integrity of the event, which an online event will never have.
 

Jovec

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dbl post
frown.png
 

Cybsled

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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So is your issue with specific events then? I'm pretty sure most major e-sports games have a mix of online and LAN play in terms of the various events that are held.

 

calla_sl

shitlord
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It's an e-sport in the sense that the matches are competitive and money is awarded. It's not an e-sport in the sense that the totality of issues surrounding online play makes the results too subject to randomness and abuse. If all competitive matches were LAN-based then the majority of issues (but not all) go away.

Dandain refers to the integrity of the event, which an online event will never have.
that makes no sense. are there esports games that are exclusively played on lan?
 

Jovec

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So is your issue with specific events then? I'm pretty sure most major e-sports games have a mix of online and LAN play in terms of the various events that are held.

Not specific events, but rather online play of those events, whether it's the totality of the tournament or just the online qualification that leads to the LAN portion. Issues like the Starladder rescheduling and forfeiting are fairly easy to sort out with the appropriate rules and better match scheduling. Rule enforcement is also important via penalties and punishment, but unless it's a big tourney the big-name teams probably have more power than the tourney itself and thus rules can be hard to enforce.

Casters like to say how it's a small community, that everyone are friends, and thus implying that fair sportsmanship abounds, but money is at stake and we'd be fools to think that players aren't taking advantage and every legal, illegal, and unethical advantage they can.

Stream delays and ghosting - I've seen 6 minutes stated as a reasonable delay, but aren't most streams running 30s-120s delays? That's certainly enough time for useful intelligence on the current game.

Live spectator integrity - Are we to assume others don't have access to the live spectator stream to pass on real-time info?

Hacking and exploiting - We assume there isn't a map hack or similar.

3rd party interference - Fans trying to help their team and hurt the opposing team through griefing, hacking, DDoSing, etc. Would a Chinese team vs US team have no outside chicanery for their match? Or Ukrainian vs Russian?

Additional team members and outside tools - Presumably Dota2 doesn't output combat to a log that can be parsed in real-time, but an extra pair of eyes can track and confirm things like smokes remaining, Aegis time, Rosh respawn (random, but still) and big Ultis. There's no reason why software couldn't be running on a second screen that lists the status of such things, with a 6th man updating it as he listens to the team-speak.

General Internet lag, strat pauses masquerading as lag pauses, steam issues, etc. Didn't TL just lose a close bo3 final to EG where Fluff had to standin because Wayto couldn't connect for a game (or two)? Presumably TL preferred to have Wayto play since they would have had strat and practice sessions around that 5-man lineup. Isn't server selection usually done in a way to penalize your opponents?

Scheduling, rescheduling, forfeits, throws, early GGs, etc. What reasons should teams be allowed to reschedule and how can those reasons be verified? Would a team lie about a reason in order to gain more time to research their opponent or practice their strat? How about to ensure that their full 5-man can play (such as if one is ill)?

Online identity, standins, and ringers - Is it fair to bring in a standin at the last minute or should teams be required to register a standin at tourney start so the opponents can watch vods, learn his heroes and habits, etc. Would a top tier player use my Steam account if I paid him $1k to play for me in a competitive final?

Obviously, most of the above (and I'm sure there is more) goes away in a LAN environment, and teams that use the above during online play would be weaker during LAN play, but what about teams that wouldn't make to the LAN play without the above? That's incentive to cheat. Taking home $10k for first instead of $5k for second in some minor online tourney is incentive to cheat. What about a second or third tier team trying to make it to the next level (for sponsorship, publicity, tourney invites, etc)? Or a player trying to make his name on the scene?

Then there are also things like Adderall and other stimulants to consider that aren't exclusive to online play. Maybe these never get solved. I know I'll still watch and enjoy it, but as entertainment. Most likely they won't until something public happens in a big money tourney.
 

Cybsled

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No one is arguing that LAN isn't ideal, but you essentially relegate yourself to local tournaments only if the ladder/tournament is going to be of any great length. The associated travel and R&B costs are just too great unless subsidized by the event, especially when you are dealing with players/teams that live in countries with significantly different standards of living/costs of living. And I don't get the "as entertainment" label. I watch NFL, MLB, and NHL games as entertainment.

Are you going to get shady shit? Of course you are. In Pro athletic or even college sports, you get shady shit too. That's just human nature. I think the trade off in terms of being able to bring different international teams together to complete relatively easily and being able to see the different playing styles clash outweighs some of the cons you listed. And besides, all the really important tournaments (specifically, The International and Starladder Finals) are LAN.
 

Jovec

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The "entertainment" and "not an esport" comments I can walk back from. Call it a poor choice of words on my part. Rather it's hard to get too invested in outcomes that are subject to so many external factors (and it's not unique to Dota2).

I know the "shady shit" happens everywhere, but the "shady shit" gets a highly abusable layer in online play that there seems to be no reasonable way to account for. Professional and college sports spend large amounts of money chasing integrity and fail to achieve it. Professional Dota2 essentially spends little-to-none and operates in a highly abusable environment. There is no way to avoid it.

And besides, all the really important tournaments (specifically, The International and Starladder Finals) are LAN.
It may work for now, but I disagree with this line of thinking because teams play their way directly (via tourney wins) or indirectly (via publicity from tourney wins) through online tournaments. TI may be clean, but the process of getting there isn't. I doubt teams like Navi, Alliance, Empire and the other top tier teams are pulling this shit to get to TI. I won't be so sure about some of weaker teams that get there, and I'm convinced that others teams are pulling "shady shit" in an attempt to get there.

Right now there is probably a large gap between the top 5 or 10 teams in the world and all the others, so we can ignore the pre-LAN portions and be satisfied that the TI results are earned. When that competitive gap shrinks I don't know that we can continue to do so.

I'm sure nothing in my posts is some big revelation. It's probably old-hat to people involved in the esport scene, but I'm just starting to follow tourneys.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
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The community will crucify you if you are caught red handed.

The other thing is that it's surprisingly hard for 5-6 people to keep a secret. If you are doing it alone, then it can go on forever basically as long as you don't fuck it up. With rosters as unstable as they are, you can easily get into position where your ex-player can reveal what was going on and profit from it. It's good to keep these issus in the back of your mind, but I don't feel like you should allow them to spoil a good game for you.
 

Nite1

<WoW Guild Officer>
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Anyone have any tips on playing timber? I like the hero but I feel like im not very good with him. Usually go arcane boots into bloodstone for items
 

MaulNutz_sl

shitlord
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Anyone have any tips on playing timber? I like the hero but I feel like im not very good with him. Usually go arcane boots into bloodstone for items
Keep Reactive Armor stacks up by making the creeps attack you (right click ANY hero in vision regardless of how far away they are and any creeps within 400 range will go after you). The downside is this will push your lane so try to minimize how many creeps you pull away by abusing the 400 range. Sometimes going blade mail can be great on him, especially in lower MMR games. Hes best vs teams with STR heroes or teams that lack lock down. A good Disruptor will take a dump on you.
 

Julian The Apostate

Vyemm Raider
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I've been wanting to put $60 into this game since it's F2P and I want to support the game and community and I feel I've defiantly gotten that much value out of this game already to justify that in my head. I just don't give a shit about cosmetic items at all. Any suggestions? Might buy some announcer packs like the above.