Energy Thread - How to Power Civilization

Cad

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The climate is gonna change regardless bro, the question is are the costs of making it change slightly less via a huge nuclear rollout and clamp down on co2 worth the costs. Its not an either or option, there is no option where the climate doesn't change, thats a false argument.
Are you saying its going to change at this point because of the huge amount of co2 (and other gases) that we've already emitted, or its changing regardless of what humans do and we are a non factor? I guess there's a difference between saying AGW is just false (second option) and saying we're fucked anyway why bother (first option).
 

Creslin

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Are you saying its going to change at this point because of the huge amount of co2 (and other gases) that we've already emitted, or its changing regardless of what humans do and we are a non factor? I guess there's a difference between saying AGW is just false (second option) and saying we're fucked anyway why bother (first option).
Oh I believe in AGW for sure. So the second, though I don't really believe the long term models that show us being completely fucked. Its just you have to realize the USs share of emissions is falling and will continue to fall so as time goes on even huge moves by us alone wont have much effect. So I think when we talk about reducing CO2 in the US we should be conscious of the costs of that reduction and really look at whether a probably small reduction in CO2 emissions, which might not even cause a measurable slowing in the warming trend, are worth the costs to industry, especially when our industry isn't exactly doing well to begin with.
 

Cad

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Oh I believe in AGW for sure. So the second, though I don't really believe the long term models that show us being completely fucked. Its just you have to realize the USs share of emissions is falling and will continue to fall so as time goes on even huge moves by us alone wont have much effect. So I think when we talk about reducing CO2 in the US we should be conscious of the costs of that reduction and really look at whether a probably small reduction in CO2 emissions, which might not even cause a measurable slowing in the warming trend, are worth the costs to industry, especially when our industry isn't exactly doing well to begin with.
Well, ok. I think any change would need to be implemented worldwide, not necessarily all at once. We can't sit here and say "well China isn't doing it, so why should we?" Someone has to be first. I agree the US share of co2 emissions is dropping, but that doesn't mean that our emissions are no issue.
 

Chanur

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Let us lead the way then. It is much easier to use diplomacy to get the rest of the world to do something if you are already doing it. Be a world leader like we constantly want to be. Not some apathetic little bitch like you are advocating Creslin.
 

Abefroman

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The problem with all of this is human beings don't give a fuck about long term. We only act when something dangers us in a short time frame. All of this shit is going to hit the fan when we are long dead and gone. Look how fast we got rid of CFC's because that was a problem that was and would affect us during our life time. We always pick short term profit over long term sustainability.
 

Picasso3

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That may be true in the cut throat sausage industry but there are plenty of people concerned and a definite intuition to provide for the future.
 

Abefroman

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That may be true in the cut throat sausage industry but there are plenty of people concerned and a definite intuition to provide for the future.
None of which are in power or own anything that can change anything.
 

Strifen

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There are five Gen 3 reactors being built in the U.S right now. Four are AP 1000's which is the newest Westinghouse reactor to be approved by the NRC.

Here's a bunch of pics of the work being done on the two AP 1000 in Georgia, it's a massive project. These are the first reactors to be built in the U.S in over 30 years.

Votgle: Americas Newest nuclear power plant - Imgur
 

Palum

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There are five Gen 3 reactors being built in the U.S right now. Four are AP 1000's which is the newest Westinghouse reactor to be approved by the NRC.

Here's a bunch of pics of the work being done on the two AP 1000 in Georgia, it's a massive project. These are the first reactors to be built in the U.S in over 30 years.

Votgle: Americas Newest nuclear power plant - Imgur
lol:

If you zoom in you'll see the rail car is made by Krupp, the company that built the largest railway cannons ever made. I'm guessing this is the conversation that started their involvement. "Ok guys we would like to move the "big-fucking thing #5" to the site by rail but we can't find any rail car strong enough to carry it" "Oh boss! didn't the Nazis have like the biggest-fucking cannon ever on a rail car back in the war? Can we like...you know, figure out who built those things and see if their still in business because they'd be the experts on carting around ludicrously heavy shit. "
 

Lithose

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The new reactors do sound good as you describe them. I'm sure if it were that easy there would be some less retarded country like Japan or France that would have demonstrated by now.
As others have said, some are being built (Fast breeders and also, modern "light waters"--which arenotmetal/sodium reactors BUT do rely on passive, rather than active, shut downs--so power goes out, they shut down, rather than just getting hotter--no need for back ups). A couple of "fast" reactors have already been used in the U.S. and worked well, but were too expensive; the research into "Gen 4's" though is being done by all countries and looks pretty awesome, but it's difficult to build prototypes due to the protestors. France for example, had two prototype fast breeders online for a while--one 140MW and one 1200. But one of them was attacked by an RPG; and the government eventually capitulated and shut them down due to political reasons. But, long and short is that this type of technology has been used and built. The main hurdle is the massive initial investment cost. And that's because Nuclears biggest flaw is that it's RoI horizon is very, very long. You're going to be waiting years before you start seeing returns.

Just imagine how much it stings to lay out a few hundred million and then have some hippy assholes legislate you out of actually producing power. This is a double whammy for fast breeders, as their operating costs are higher too, so returns take even longer (As far as I know). This is why Japan/France are pumping so much research money into it, if the costs came down to what LWR is; it wouldn't be so risky.
 

Tuco

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There are five Gen 3 reactors being built in the U.S right now. Four are AP 1000's which is the newest Westinghouse reactor to be approved by the NRC.

Here's a bunch of pics of the work being done on the two AP 1000 in Georgia, it's a massive project. These are the first reactors to be built in the U.S in over 30 years.

Votgle: Americas Newest nuclear power plant - Imgur
That whole imgur is a great read and shots, that's such a massive plant.

I feel nervous when my friend asks me for help moving his TV. I can't imagine being the head crane operator here.
 

Cad

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There are five Gen 3 reactors being built in the U.S right now. Four are AP 1000's which is the newest Westinghouse reactor to be approved by the NRC.

Here's a bunch of pics of the work being done on the two AP 1000 in Georgia, it's a massive project. These are the first reactors to be built in the U.S in over 30 years.

Votgle: Americas Newest nuclear power plant - Imgur
Cool links, I didn't know they were building these right now.
 

Palum

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That does give me some hope, I had figured the only Gen 3s we might see would be commissioned by the USN.
 

Dyvim

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More people have probably died in mining accidents for fossil fuels alone than have ever been killed by nuclear plants, nevermind the power plant accidents for fossil fuels and the emissions from them.
Yeah because radioactive Uranium isnt mined, enriched by heavy usage of water and other chemicals, and transported to the nulear plants. It simply drops from heaven where we happen to need it.
You should book a trip to south africa or australia and visit a uranium mine where the poor slobs mine that shit in the yellow caked wasteland sometimes at temperetures beyond 100 degrees and w/o the usage of proper protection (masks, suits, etc.)
 

Creslin

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Yeah because radioactive Uranium isnt mined, enriched by heavy usage of water and other chemicals, and transported to the nulear plants. It simply drops from heaven where we happen to need it.
You should book a trip to south africa or australia and visit a uranium mine where the poor slobs mine that shit in the yellow caked wasteland sometimes at temperetures beyond 100 degrees and w/o the usage of proper protection (masks, suits, etc.)
Out of site out of mind. The same reason these guys think its a good idea to drive US production overseas with high taxes on emissions that only might harm someone indirectly a century from now, and don't understand that in many cases it won't be efficient american factories replacing the coal based production but even more inefficient south east asian factories.
 

Strifen

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That whole imgur is a great read and shots, that's such a massive plant.
It'll be a shitload of electricity generated in one highly compact area. The U.K. Department of Energy & Climate Change published this info-graphic but eventually took it down out of pressure from green groups and lobbies.

Acres required to power 6 million homes:

Wind 250,000
Solar 130,000
Nuclear 430

Energy Density (MJ/1kg)

Wood 10
Ethanol 26.8
Coal 32.5
Crude Oil 41.9
Diesel 45.8
Natural Gas 55.6
Natural Uranium 570,000
Reactor-grade Uranium 3,700,000
 

Cad

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Yeah because radioactive Uranium isnt mined, enriched by heavy usage of water and other chemicals, and transported to the nulear plants. It simply drops from heaven where we happen to need it.
You should book a trip to south africa or australia and visit a uranium mine where the poor slobs mine that shit in the yellow caked wasteland sometimes at temperetures beyond 100 degrees and w/o the usage of proper protection (masks, suits, etc.)
Obviously Uranium or thorium has to be mined as well. Nuclear power stations of 1000 megawatt electrical generation capacity require around 200 tons of uranium per year.

The US has 62 operating nuclear plants. So we'd need approximately 12000 tons of uranium. I'm ignoring enrichment etc here; just the raw mining needed. Even if you figure that only 10% of that uranium is usable, so we need 120000 tons, thats fine. The numbers still work out fine.

In 2012, 1,016.4 million short tons of coal were mined in the US.

Hmmm, 1.01 billion vs. 120000... yes, those are approximately equal enterprises. Only about 3 orders of magnitude off. You're right! I'm so sorry I questioned you at all. Carry on.