Europa Universalis IV

Deathwing · Feb 11, 2023

Is there a way to make mid to late game combat more interesting? Even if you are easily superior, you can't leverage that superiority due to fort zones of control and attrition. I realize this is to prevent quick curb stomps. But it incentivizes the AI to stack their forces, hide behind their forts, and pick off your armies as you try to siege down their forts. So in the end, you have to overcommit to sieges and lose a ton of troops to attrition. Or, hide supporting armies behind the siege and hope you're quick enough to merge them into the siege should the enemy attack.

No amount of advance ever fixes this. Fort levels and enemy stack sizes will grow faster than cannons/siege ability and supply limit.

I almost prefer playing as vassal swarms because the vassal AI will sometimes counter the enemy AI, chasing their stacks all over and allowing you to concentrate on sieges.

Zajeer · Feb 12, 2023

How do you build your armies? One thing that I've been more deliberate about is having stacks that are simply for field combat, while other stacks only siege. Based on mil tech/fort level in the game, I try to build siege stacks with small amounts of infantry and max cannons (enough to get the +5 siege bonus). And then the combat stacks are more balanced stacks with a better ratio of inf/cannons/cav. I always park a combat stack as a chaperone to a siege stack early and then once the enemy nation is out of units, the attack stacks can be split up to carpet siege. I build my combat stacks to be 1/2 the size of combat width

The AI only will try to fight your units in the field if it thinks it has a tech/quality or numerical advantage. However, if you're at parity or slightly stronger, they will only attack your units when they out-number you; so keeping enough things in range of a sieger to provide defensive support, the AI will not attack into you usually.

Also I try to avoid battles if I don't need to take them - if the AI chooses to siege race you in a war, that's generally ok since you can usually beat them in a race (unless its the Ottomans with their stupid siege ability)

Zajeer · Feb 12, 2023

Also, slight tangent about developing great manpower provinces - one of the best things to look for is a province that has an inland center of trade, that is in a state with 4-5 provinces, where each province has grain or livestock for trade goods. A level 3 inland center of trade gives local manpower modifier +33%; the state edict gives +25%. So you stack those 2 modifiers, along with building Soldier's Household (double manpower in grain/lovestock) and a Barracks/Training Field. This makes that 1 state account for potentially between 1/3 to 1/6 your entire nation's manpower

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This is from my current TO -> Holy Horde game and I'm near late game. Kulm is a Polish Center of Trade. Early on in my game, I developed Kulm to ~35 dev to spawn Colonialism, and then each other province in that state I developed up to 10 dev with a heavy lean on mil points. As you can see that state by itself accounts for 1/7 of my manpower however early game it was a 1/3, and later in the game I have 2 states where I deliberately did this (Kiev is also a great province/state)

Consider being more intentional with developing for manpower - it can make a huge difference for your nation if you stack it well.

Deathwing · Feb 13, 2023

Zajeer said:
How do you build your armies? One thing that I've been more deliberate about is having stacks that are simply for field combat, while other stacks only siege. Based on mil tech/fort level in the game, I try to build siege stacks with small amounts of infantry and max cannons (enough to get the +5 siege bonus). And then the combat stacks are more balanced stacks with a better ratio of inf/cannons/cav. I always park a combat stack as a chaperone to a siege stack early and then once the enemy nation is out of units, the attack stacks can be split up to carpet siege. I build my combat stacks to be 1/2 the size of combat width

The AI only will try to fight your units in the field if it thinks it has a tech/quality or numerical advantage. However, if you're at parity or slightly stronger, they will only attack your units when they out-number you; so keeping enough things in range of a sieger to provide defensive support, the AI will not attack into you usually.

Also I try to avoid battles if I don't need to take them - if the AI chooses to siege race you in a war, that's generally ok since you can usually beat them in a race (unless its the Ottomans with their stupid siege ability)

Good suggestions, thanks. I wasn't aware of that AI behavior.

I'm not sure I have a specific army build. Attrition bugs me more than probably should, so really weird trying to take advantage of combat width, backline cannons, and flanking cavalry all while not attritioning. Doesn't seem possible.

DickTrickle · Feb 13, 2023

Deathwing said:
Good suggestions, thanks. I wasn't aware of that AI behavior.

I'm not sure I have a specific army build. Attrition bugs me more than probably should, so really weird trying to take advantage of combat width, backline cannons, and flanking cavalry all while not attritioning. Doesn't seem possible.

You have to have smaller armies of the correct proportion that you only move to the same province for a fight. It's a good deal of micromanage to avoid the attrition but that's really the only way to do it.

Deathwing · Feb 13, 2023

DickTrickle said:
You have to have smaller armies of the correct proportion that you only move to the same province for a fight. It's a good deal of micromanage to avoid the attrition but that's really the only way to do it.

Yeah, I've tried that with varying success. It seems the reinforcements can end up just watching the fight as I've had many where they aren't counted in the summary despite entering the province before the battle was over.

Furry · Feb 13, 2023

Once you become a really large nation, microing your armies is too much of a pain for me, and your manpower should be able to absorb reasonable attrition. I tend to do something like this with my armies:

10/0/0 super early game to save money.
10/2 when I can afford cavalry.
10/2/2 when cannons come out.

from there, once I hit the mid game and cannons become effective, I tend to slowly up how many I have.

10/2/5 in most cases.
10/2/8-10 if I’m rich enough.

I find an army this size can handle the vast majority of rebellions, generally doesn’t have attrition issues in peace almost everywhere. I just stack merge the armies together when it’s time for war. Early to mid I generally only ever need to merge two, but late game I’ll merge four.

You just got to live with the fact you’ll eat attrition fight countries like the ottomans. Don’t be afraid to slacken standards, it gives a ton of manpower on demand.

Araysar · Feb 13, 2023

Furry said:
Once you become a really large nation, microing your armies is too much of a pain for me, and your manpower should be able to absorb reasonable attrition. I tend to do something like this with my armies:

10/0/0 super early game to save money.
10/2 when I can afford cavalry.
10/2/2 when cannons come out.

from there, once I hit the mid game and cannons become effective, I tend to slowly up how many I have.

10/2/5 in most cases.
10/2/8-10 if I’m rich enough.

I find an army this size can handle the vast majority of rebellions, generally doesn’t have attrition issues in peace almost everywhere. I just stack merge the armies together when it’s time for war. Early to mid I generally only ever need to merge two, but late game I’ll merge four.

You just got to live with the fact you’ll eat attrition fight countries like the ottomans. Don’t be afraid to slacken standards, it gives a ton of manpower on demand.

After doing a bunch of reading and research over the last 2 months, I found that the most optimal army size for me is 13 infantry, 2 cav and 15 artillery. In my last Mughal game, I ended up with like 50 of these 30K army stacks

The overall size is high enough that one 30K stack can quash almost all rebel uprisings
Yet the stack is small enough that by late to mid game, it can comfortably sit by itself in almost any province (whether during war or peace) without eating attrition since supply limits are 40-60 by then in each province.
The cavalry count is low since they get less and less useful by late game, but still enough to give you a flanking bonus
The artillery count is high enough to give you max siege bonus when sieging a fort with a single 30K stack
The ratio of 13-2-15 is designed on purpose so that your entire front row of infantry and cav is equal to your entire back row of all artillery. This way both rows are doing damage simultaneously and the arty is protected across entire line.
The stack size is also large enough that you can easily and quickly combine half a dozen stacks at any time to create a 180K army for major engagements, and then separate them quickly back into 30K stacks right after battle and move them to separate provinces

Despite all this, its still a major fucking pain, and you will still end up eating decent amounts of attrition in late game if you're not constantly micromanaging

Furry · Feb 13, 2023

Araysar said:
After doing a bunch of reading and research over the last 2 months, I found that the most optimal army size for me is 13 infantry, 2 cav and 15 artillery. In my last Mughal game, I ended up with like 50 of these 30K army stacks

The overall size is high enough that one 30K stack can quash almost all rebel uprisings
Yet the stack is small enough that by late to mid game, it can comfortably sit by itself in almost any province (whether during war or peace) without eating attrition since supply limits are 40-60 by then in each province.
The cavalry count is low since they get less and less useful by late game, but still enough to give you a flanking bonus
The artillery count is high enough to give you max siege bonus when sieging a fort with a single 30K stack
The ratio of 13-2-15 is designed on purpose so that your entire front row of infantry and cav is equal to your entire back row of all artillery. This way both rows are doing damage simultaneously and the arty is protected across entire line.
The stack size is also large enough that you can easily and quickly combine half a dozen stacks at any time to create a 180K army for major engagements, and then separate them quickly back into 30K stacks right after battle and move them to separate provinces

Despite all this, its still a major fucking pain, and you will still end up eating decent amounts of attrition in late game if you're not constantly micromanaging

Pretty similar to what I do, but it’s also important to know why stacks are set up the way they are, knowing combat width and what not. My work game I’m kilwa and have miltech 14, but still running almost exclusively 10/2/2 despite being obscenely rich, because I’m fighting in Africa and Indonesia who just can’t stand up to me. The money is better spent on just developing and preparing for the day the ottomans reach my borders.

Things to consider, some countries it’s perfectly fine to completely disregard cavalry, though I tend to throw 2 in always. And if you’re facing a tough war, it’s a good idea to have more infantry than cannons, so you can liberally consolidate forces without losing effectiveness

Aaron · Feb 14, 2023

Have they buffed cavalry? I remember back in the day when watching Arumba do his Europa Spreadsheet runs he figured out that the combat bonus you got from them did not justify the extra cost - unless you were a horde or one of the others who get a bonus to cav.

Kaines · Feb 14, 2023

Aaron said:
Have they buffed cavalry? I remember back in the day when watching Arumba do his Europa Spreadsheet runs he figured out that the combat bonus you got from them did not justify the extra cost - unless you were a horde or one of the others who get a bonus to cav.

Not really. Early in the game you're better off spending the money on extra infantry. However, mid and late game the flanking bonus you get can cause stack wipes to occur when you wouldn't get them without cav present, so a small investment when you're stupid wealthy is worth it.

Furry · Feb 14, 2023

Aaron said:
Have they buffed cavalry? I remember back in the day when watching Arumba do his Europa Spreadsheet runs he figured out that the combat bonus you got from them did not justify the extra cost - unless you were a horde or one of the others who get a bonus to cav.

They did buff cavalry last patch I believe. They still aren’t amazing most of the time, but they are worth keeping around for exactly the reason posted above. They aren’t terribly expensive to throw onto an army, especially if you can have a full back row of cannons.

yerm · Feb 16, 2023

Cavalry make a pretty big impact on stackwipes and finishing off a stack is a pretty huge deal. Even if they're financially poor on paper, going from only wiping 1-2s to wiping midstacks is a giant jump, and doesn't really happen if your 1400s armies are all infantry, even if your overall stats looks better. By the time arty are so strong and/or bonus stacking has gotten silly and the flanking stackwipe edge is fading, the cost is probably becoming moot unless you went somewhere weird, so may as well keep em. By mid game I frequently have 10/2/10 and 10/0/10 and sometimes a few 2/0/somethings for sieging. My early cav are kept but new ones do not always have cav included.

Locnar · Feb 16, 2023

Deathwing said:
Is there a way to make mid to late game combat more interesting? Even if you are easily superior, you can't leverage that superiority due to fort zones of control and attrition. I realize this is to prevent quick curb stomps. But it incentivizes the AI to stack their forces, hide behind their forts, and pick off your armies as you try to siege down their forts. So in the end, you have to overcommit to sieges and lose a ton of troops to attrition. Or, hide supporting armies behind the siege and hope you're quick enough to merge them into the siege should the enemy attack.

No amount of advance ever fixes this. Fort levels and enemy stack sizes will grow faster than cannons/siege ability and supply limit.

I almost prefer playing as vassal swarms because the vassal AI will sometimes counter the enemy AI, chasing their stacks all over and allowing you to concentrate on sieges.

I prefer being a vassal swarm overlord too for this reason. The game most def bogs down mid to late. What I end up doing is just taking the losses and do fort assaults' to just get them down. There are ideas and policies you can choose too that increase your siege ability by a fuk ton too. Don't forget spy networks also speed up sieges.

Araysar · Feb 22, 2023

Im playing tall for the first time. Currently playing as Riga with 1 province and I have a large trade empire I built in Baltic Sea, Novgorod and Lubeck.

Does anyone have any tips on using trade companies, how they work, whether theyre worth it? I'm trying to figure out whether I can start forming trade companies outside of Europe, how to do it, and whats the best way to min/max it.

Reason I'm doing it is that Riga has a game mechanic that gives it crazy bonuses, but only if it has less than 6 provinces in Europe. So I'm trying to expand outside of Europe and want to see if it makes more sense to blob with vassals or do trade companies

Kaines · Feb 22, 2023

Araysar said:
Im playing tall for the first time. Currently playing as Riga with 1 province and I have a large trade empire I built in Baltic Sea, Novgorod and Lubeck.

Does anyone have any tips on using trade companies, how they work, whether theyre worth it? I'm trying to figure out whether I can start forming trade companies outside of Europe, how to do it, and whats the best way to min/max it.

Reason I'm doing it is that Riga has a game mechanic that gives it crazy bonuses, but only if it has less than 6 provinces in Europe. So I'm trying to expand outside of Europe and want to see if it makes more sense to blob with vassals or do trade companies

These are most important reasons to form trade companies.

Zajeer · Mar 5, 2023

Finished my TO campaign last week. Playing as a horde nation is fun, playing as a German horde nation is even more fun. The mission tree was enjoyable and being able to just raze land all over the place was so good. Anyway, decided to concentrate on this game to get One Faith, since it seemed like the best run I'd likely want to do for that tedious achievement.

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Sadly you can't make every other religion 0 unless you colonize every province in the game (see that Sunni strip in Central Africa for example).

My ideas were Divine, Diplomatic, Administrative, Influence, Espionage, Economic, Horde. In hindsight, I should have gone Economic/Horde instead of Influence/Espionage - the extra raze power policy you get from that combo is just nuts. Once you begin to snowball, you have near unlimited mana with Raze - the limiter on conquering land isn't admin mana by this point, but how fast you can clear out over-extension/core.

Anyway, if anyone wants to clear out World Conquerer/One Faith achievements from their backlog, give TO a run - imo they're the most fun (least tedious) to do this with, and probably the easiest

Araysar · Mar 5, 2023

Zajeer said:
Finished my TO campaign last week. Playing as a horde nation is fun, playing as a German horde nation is even more fun. The mission tree was enjoyable and being able to just raze land all over the place was so good. Anyway, decided to concentrate on this game to get One Faith, since it seemed like the best run I'd likely want to do for that tedious achievement.

Sadly you can't make every other religion 0 unless you colonize every province in the game (see that Sunni strip in Central Africa for example).

My ideas were Divine, Diplomatic, Administrative, Influence, Espionage, Economic, Horde. In hindsight, I should have gone Economic/Horde instead of Influence/Espionage - the extra raze power policy you get from that combo is just nuts. Once you begin to snowball, you have near unlimited mana with Raze - the limiter on conquering land isn't admin mana by this point, but how fast you can clear out over-extension/core.

Anyway, if anyone wants to clear out World Conquerer/One Faith achievements from their backlog, give TO a run - imo they're the most fun (least tedious) to do this with, and probably the easiest

That treasury looks nuts

Zajeer · Mar 5, 2023

Araysar said:
That treasury looks nuts

Yeah man, if you grab Falun Copper Mine early from Sweden, just dump all of your production mana you overflow from razing all heretics/heathens in the world. That wonder is basically a gold mine that can't break, gives no inflation, and scales better with more mana

Araysar · Mar 5, 2023

Zajeer said:
Yeah man, if you grab Falun Copper Mine early from Sweden, just dump all of your production mana you overflow from razing all heretics/heathens in the world. That wonder is basically a gold mine that can't break, gives no inflation, and scales better with more mana

So whats the strategy playing with Teutonic order? What do you do during war time, what do you focus on during peace time? I assume the CB is always Heresy?

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Europa Universalis IV

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