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Fight

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Let’s say you have demand for 200 seats at any price point. But, through scrapping the office couch cushions and taking employee donations, you can only afford a 25 seat venue. And your boss’ say you better put at least $30k in their pockets or they won’t let you do your a silly little nerd event… then you get $1500 tickets. Cheers!

That is how they have run the franchise for the last 25 years, so they are staying true to their roots.
 
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Zaide

TLP Idealist
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I heard the server with the Dev guild had their live raids unlock 3-4 minutes early today and won the expansion clear by 1 minute. The gift that keeps on giving.
 
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Elidroth

Trakanon Raider
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I heard the server with the Dev guild had their live raids unlock 3-4 minutes early today and won the expansion clear by 1 minute. The gift that keeps on giving.
I find that hard to believe. One thing we had when I worked there was integrity. We didn't want anything like this or even the appearance of something like this going on.
 
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Zaide

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I find that hard to believe. One thing we had when I worked there was integrity. We didn't want anything like this or even the appearance of something like this going on.
It's true, but it's random which servers are up first and up last for this sort of thing so not explicitly corrupt but this is why you shouldn't have staff in top raiding guilds because it looks really bad when the top guild in the world has multiple current or former staff members in it.
 

yerm

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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16,625
I find that hard to believe. One thing we had when I worked there was integrity. We didn't want anything like this or even the appearance of something like this going on.

The attempts to maintain integrity seem to have left with holly. While it certainly may not have been a planned conspiracy, the idea of avoiding even the appearance of corruption seems to have died, and the devs today don't appear to really give a shit what people think. A sort of stubborn "WE know we're right and that's all that matters" kind of attitude.
 

Rajaah

Honorable Member
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Yeah, there's a lot to be said for avoiding the appearance of impropriety whether anything is actually amiss or not.

Then again the devs in question aren't going to just stop playing in the guild in question so it kinda is what it is at this point. It's the kind of thing that'll drive off other players, though.
 

yerm

Golden Baronet of the Realm
6,494
16,625
Yeah, there's a lot to be said for avoiding the appearance of impropriety whether anything is actually amiss or not.

Then again the devs in question aren't going to just stop playing in the guild in question so it kinda is what it is at this point. It's the kind of thing that'll drive off other players, though.

I was told several times that foh/furor were told explicitly by blizzard not to win world firsts or maybe even server firsts as it would look bad. While there was absolutely no wrongdoing or cheating or help or anything like that, a guild tied to a developer should not appear to be winning.

This is all that would really be needed here. "You have staff littering your ranks. Do not take first place."
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
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Yeah, there's a lot to be said for avoiding the appearance of impropriety whether anything is actually amiss or not.

Then again the devs in question aren't going to just stop playing in the guild in question so it kinda is what it is at this point. It's the kind of thing that'll drive off other players, though.
I mean even if they all quit who would believe them? "Yeah you're totally not there on a different character" - it would be hard to regain that trust.
 

Kharzette

Watcher of Overs
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I think it is cool that they play at all. You'd be amazed how many developers don't play their own game (or even any games at all).
 
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Daidraco

Avatar of War Slayer
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I think it is cool that they play at all. You'd be amazed how many developers don't play their own game (or even any games at all).
I never really thought about it until Diablo 4 and realized just how terrible those devs are at playing their own game, if they had even played it all before hand. Oof
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Any raiding scene where the toughest raids in an expansion are beaten the night of release is not a serious raiding game and who wins doesn't matter. Someone here described it as a casual boomer bowling league, and that sounds about right. Ive pushed the idea of hard mode raids and most of the raiding population, even at the elite level, doesn't really want that.

gjfjjhgh.gif
 

hEKK

Molten Core Raider
125
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Any raiding scene where the toughest raids in an expansion are beaten the night of release is not a serious raiding game and who wins doesn't matter. Someone here described it as a casual boomer bowling league, and that sounds about right. Ive pushed the idea of hard mode raids and most of the raiding population, even at the elite level, doesn't really want that.

gjfjjhgh.gif
I thought live eq was for the elite only
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
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I mean beta raids are available for like two months every year and you can literally just spam them all day every day during that period. Guilds can come into an expansion having cleared its raids literally 100 times already before day 1 even begins. You can’t expect a challenge in that environment.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I mean beta raids are available for like two months every year and you can literally just spam them all day every day during that period. Guilds can come into an expansion having cleared its raids literally 100 times already before day 1 even begins. You can’t expect a challenge in that environment.
The problem isn't that elite guilds can prepare to quickly defeat the boss, the problem is they don't need to.
 

Daidraco

Avatar of War Slayer
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Was something really cool in early everquest where it seemed like some of the raid bosses were impossible to kill. Often times actually being truly impossible to kill, but thats not what I would prefer MMO's did. Just sitting the ultimate bad guy of the expansion out there that takes 100% farm of all other content in the expansion, fully equipped raid group, that perfected a ffxiv type of level of strategy to beat. But not every single boss - just like.. one, maybe? per expansion. Too many people, including myself, just want to zone out and enjoy bullshitting with people in a video game to be try hard 100% of the time. Mythic raiding in WoW leads to burnout, so I can see why smaller audience games dont want to go down that road. (Nor should WoW at this point, either.)
 
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Zaide

TLP Idealist
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Was something really cool in early everquest where it seemed like some of the raid bosses were impossible to kill. Often times actually being truly impossible to kill, but thats not what I would prefer MMO's did. Just sitting the ultimate bad guy of the expansion out there that takes 100% farm of all other content in the expansion, fully equipped raid group, that perfected a ffxiv type of level of strategy to beat. But not every single boss - just like.. one, maybe? per expansion. Too many people, including myself, just want to zone out and enjoy bullshitting with people in a video game to be try hard 100% of the time. Mythic raiding in WoW leads to burnout, so I can see why smaller audience games dont want to go down that road. (Nor should WoW at this point, either.)
I like this philosophy a lot.
 
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Rajaah

Honorable Member
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Was something really cool in early everquest where it seemed like some of the raid bosses were impossible to kill. Often times actually being truly impossible to kill, but thats not what I would prefer MMO's did. Just sitting the ultimate bad guy of the expansion out there that takes 100% farm of all other content in the expansion, fully equipped raid group, that perfected a ffxiv type of level of strategy to beat. But not every single boss - just like.. one, maybe? per expansion. Too many people, including myself, just want to zone out and enjoy bullshitting with people in a video game to be try hard 100% of the time. Mythic raiding in WoW leads to burnout, so I can see why smaller audience games dont want to go down that road. (Nor should WoW at this point, either.)

I agree, and I miss that about early EQ expansions. They all had all had end zones or end bosses that were super-hard compared to the rest and took a while for someone to take down: Classic (Fear), Kunark (VP), Velious (North ToV/AoW), PoP (Time), GoD (Tunat), and OoW (Mata). In one case (Tunat) it wasn't taken down until the next expansion was out and everyone wa 5 levels higher. After that it seemed like bosses went down pretty soon after being unlocked, with keys being the only speed bump. Now it's basically an immediate thing.

Underfoot is great and a lot of elite players love it, but it drove off a good amount of casual guilds on live because every raid was super-hard (except Badgers of course). A lot of those fights weren't interesting either. So a guild could spend a month dying to that giant slug boss, or Fippy freaking Darkpaw. That definitely made people quit.

The Burning Lands might be my favorite late-game expansion, between the cool aesthetic (genies and Plane of Air/Fire) and the way it's structured. Most of the raids in the expansion are tough but fair, not that bad to take down, but require enough effort to be rewarding. Then you've got Mearatas at the end which is one super-tough fight, exponentially harder than everything leading up to it, and requires people to be on their A game and A equipment and so on. They successfully recaptured that vibe that old eras had where you had to really put in some work to clear the very last battle, and if you didn't want to put in that work, you had the whole rest of the expansion to mess around in.

I'd love to see a Burning Lands 2.0 type expansion with the same vibe/aesthetic/models that covers the opposing themes of Earth/Water with Loruella as the endzone. They set everything up for it in TBL and I'm surprised they didn't follow that up. Loruella being Mearatas on steroids (and held back from testing until, say, the last week) might recapture some of the old game's vibe. Surprised they didn't do this after the Luclin remakes, considering it's basically part 3 of a PoP remake (Broken Mirror, Burning Lands) and they could reuse a ton of assets.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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I don't think you can consistently support this approach with lore but I really like PoP's setup. WoW's setup feels like PoP-light where multiple encounters lead to the final encounter but PoP took it to the next level. Every zone was a level and layer to the progression and took time to slowly conquer before unlocking PoT. Maybe I'm looking through the lens of nostalgia but PoP felt like every zone and encounter were pieces of the complete puzzle.

When I play WoW, and I really enjoyed Dragonflight so I'm not being critical of it directly, I eventually never look at the majority of their expansion once I get to raiding. PoP did fairly well at keeping zones relevant as you progressed and making them key areas to level, grind aa's, alts, etc. Now, you can't give every zone a god and tie each piece to the end game progression every expansion but it was a great approach. Every dungeon was a raid and every raid was necessary not to mention it was also leading you through the story.

Fast fowarding, Laurion's Song seemed very thin compared to some of the recent expansions such as the ones discussed in the thread so I'm hoping they'll do something really solid for the 25th. I have no idea the size of their team but even with how poor their marketing has been over the years, I believe they have lifted people's expectations. So we'll see.
 
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Koushirou

Log Wizard
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I never ended up finishing my epic 2.0 questline. Think I used to have a stone from Agony? I think it was? But last I checked my character, it wasn't there, so maybe I need it again. With as much time has passed since they came out, is it possible to solo those quests at this point? Last I played was Depths of Darkhollow, if that helps show about where my character is progression-wise. Always felt bad that I never finished my dildo mace.