Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

Meko · Sep 30, 2013

I loved FFXI and I played it for many years. I desperately wanted to get into FF14 and I played up to around level 31/32 before allowing my free time to end my time in-game. I recently tried out the 7 day free pass thing from WoW to try out the new 5.4 content along with some comparing the two games in terms of combat etc. While 5.4 is good or whatever, the one thing that stuck out to me is how much I enjoyed the fluid combat in WoW and how I feel like it's missing from FF14. In WoW, as a healer (most of the time), I could run and be apart of the group rather than standing off to the side and spamming my heal ability. I could run, toss a splash heal, a shield/bubble and still be in the flow of the combat. For me, I think FF is missing that component of group play and combat. I didn't realize it until I went back to WoW and compared the two.

Also, I agree with Spronk in terms of needed changes.

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

One thing I see allot of endgame paladins do is heal themselves with cure 1 when the boss is any type of animation.
Especially if they are overhealing themselves it causes a ton of threat on the target.

Also, you shouldn't have to do this if a healer is good, but lets face it most people aren't so as a tank you really need to check the threat meter constantly.
If your WHM is rising to fast just tell him to deagro. It will help you, and will help him.

axeman_sl · Sep 30, 2013

3. its ridiculously silly to have dungeons be tank/healer/2 dps. Should be tank/healer/3-5 dps. Not only will this help with queues, but will positively reinforce people playing tanks/healers since they will get better chances at loot (no competition).

It'll be particularly stupid when the 24-man raid content is released, but in the opposite extreme. WoW already had a problem with the transition from group to raid formats because tank demands went from 1:5 to 2:25, sometimes with a third off-tank on certain fights. In FF14, it'ssixparties to a raid, so the ratio is even worse. A four-man party setup is stupid on so many levels. Although we haven't seen the 24-man content yet, it's pretty safe to say that raids won't need six tanks. More likely three or even just two.

While a big part of the reason so few people play tanks is because they simply don't want the responsibility, that only really affects the bad players who are terrified of taking on any kind of job where their failure is visible. What's much worse for the endgame environment is the fact that experienced raiders are even more hesitant to play tanks because they know the demand for that role absolutely plummets as soon as group content is finished.

The game abruptly transitions from needing 25% of the playerbase to be tanks to suddenly needing less than 10% of them to be tanks. Ambitious players are very aware of this, and so should game developers be. Like with so many other things in this game, however, SE seemed completely oblivious to fundamental MMORPG issues and easy solutions, opting instead to go in theoppositedirection and make a known problem even worse.

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

Well the 24 man is raid finder, so its cross server. Shouldnt be a problem finding tanks for that.

The endgame content is still 8 man. They plan to put more turns into Coils, which is some of the laziest shit I have ever seen in an endgame.

Kreugen · Sep 30, 2013

Column_sl said:
Well the 24 man is raid finder, so its cross server. Shouldnt be a problem finding tanks for that.

The endgame content is still 8 man. They plan to put more turns into Coils, which is some of the laziest shit I have ever seen in an endgame.

You don't understand math.

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

I doubt they will force 6 tanks for the 24 man, it will probly be 1 tank per 8 man.

So 3 tanks, which is only one more then Castrum is currently

So this quote would hold true

The game abruptly transitions from needing 25% of the playerbase to be tanks to suddenly needing less than 10% of them to be tanks.

They would need less of the population to be tanks, which should be fine because most people arent playing tanks right now.

Pasteton · Sep 30, 2013

Column_sl said:
I doubt they will force 6 tanks for the 24 man, it will probly be 1 tank per 8 man.

So 3 tanks, which is only one more then Castrum is currently

So this quote would hold true

They would need less of the population to be tanks, which should be fine because most people arent playing tanks right now.

The Aggro from healing kinda reminds me of ffxi and I think it's a good thing. Ever since wow aggro in mmos has been taken for granted. In eq and Ffxi days people had to be careful and plan their actions. As a whm if the tank is able to switch targets to gain aggro in a reasonable amount of time, I've hardly ever had Aggro issues. Most of the times I get Aggro it is usually avoidable and my fault, like casting a regen late In a fight so its up next pull, bad medica timings before adds spawn. Sometimes it can't be avoided but I think most threat issues can be managed just with awareness and proper timing. Even with warriors, I just stone skin them right as they are finishing a pull, so the next pull they grab I don't have to heal as early and risk pulling threat on off mobs. Most of the time I am healing the blm or other dps that pulled aggro off the warr and not myself

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

You're talking about two different things tho, that's small group healing.
Raid healing is whole nother issue since most of the bosses split.

Let me explain, Titan is a single target boss that does not split

So your rotation is always to deagro as soon as it comes up. This should put you behind the tank and the dps always since they are constantly gaining threat.
Of course you can still catch up if you mismanage overhealing, and regens.

Imagine regen as another dps that is not falling off the threat meter even when you deagro.
That's fine, one boss = no problem.

Heres where it gets tricky. Coils takes a shitload of healing, and Bosses will split, and have adds constantly spawning.

You will be constantly healing, only stopping when you have to which is planned with the tank using his defensive CD's.
You are doing so much healing you have to do the deagro rotation, or you will rip the boss off him instantly.

The problem comes when adds show up, or the boss splits. If your deagro isnt up when that happens, that split off boss is making a B line for you, and it is going to take the tank abit to get it back.
Even worse with a hard hitting boss that is spawning adds, you have to be experienced enough to know when its about to happen, and where to stand.

These bosses hit hard, almost 50% per cleave,and the cleaves happen allot. The tank must be topped off at all times.
the aoe regen, and single target regens need to be timed perfectly. You absolutely can not have it on the tank all the time because of the Boss splitting, and add problems

Really comes down to, if they want us to play that type of meta game they need to make better tools for us. A deagro every 2 min isnt sufficent when encounters are rolling that fast.
If they don't want to do that then fix regen/overhealing threat.

Of all the games I've healed in this is by far the worst healer agro I have ever seen. WoW, EQ, EQ2, etc werent even close

Pasteton · Sep 30, 2013

I dunno I think there should be tools already to deal with these situations. Tanks should bust out defense cool downs, healers avoid certain high threat skills when possible. Maybe it needs to be tuned properly , but the fact that aggro is not a given is a good thing. Maybe one mechanic they could add which would help would be the trick/sneak attack that ffxi had, to quickly give tanks threat. Surprised its missing from this game, and gives dps a good utility skill (tho I suppose we will see it when thief job comes out)

Man0warr · Sep 30, 2013

Column_sl said:
They designed it that you had to play a job, taking your main class will still only gain you the same shared classes as the sub job.

They designed it for people to use Jobs in group/raid situations. When soloing or doing whatever, the added flexibility of the shared class abilities wins out.

In a group situation when your role is more focused, having access to abilities like Protect and self heals are less important.

Mazim · Sep 30, 2013

Column_sl said:
You're talking about two different things tho, that's small group healing.
Raid healing is whole nother issue since most of the bosses split.

Let me explain, Titan is a single target boss that does not split

So your rotation is always to deagro as soon as it comes up. This should put you behind the tank and the dps always since they are constantly gaining threat.
Of course you can still catch up if you mismanage overhealing, and regens.

Imagine regen as another dps that is not falling off the threat meter even when you deagro.
That's fine, one boss = no problem.

Heres where it gets tricky. Coils takes a shitload of healing, and Bosses will split, and have adds constantly spawning.

You will be constantly healing, only stopping when you have to which is planned with the tank using his defensive CD's.
You are doing so much healing you have to do the deagro rotation, or you will rip the boss off him instantly.

The problem comes when adds show up, or the boss splits. If your deagro isnt up when that happens, that split off boss is making a B line for you, and it is going to take the tank abit to get it back.
Even worse with a hard hitting boss that is spawning adds, you have to be experienced enough to know when its about to happen, and where to stand.

These bosses hit hard, almost 50% per cleave,and the cleaves happen allot. The tank must be topped off at all times.
the aoe regen, and single target regens need to be timed perfectly. You absolutely can not have it on the tank all the time because of the Boss splitting, and add problems

Really comes down to, if they want us to play that type of meta game they need to make better tools for us. A deagro every 2 min isnt sufficent when encounters are rolling that fast.
If they don't want to do that then fix regen/overhealing threat.

Of all the games I've healed in this is by far the worst healer agro I have ever seen. WoW, EQ, EQ2, etc werent even close

You have really bad tanks or you are over healing a lot. I wouldn't be suprised if over healing has additional threat of some sort.

Kaosu · Sep 30, 2013

ZProtoss_sl said:
This is where you're going wrong. 20 int to someone using a garuda weapon and either darklight (or god forbid a mix of ak/darklight gear) is a much bigger portion of your overall stats than someone who's using full Allagan. All the ilvl90 stuff counts as a 50% increase over to the ilvl70 stuff when it comes to base stats (ie: 12 int armor becomes 18 int armor, etc). The abilities THM has access to scale on a percentage basis with your gear, whereas the BLM int bonus stays static. Also, burst damage (within 30-40s windows) is highly important with the direction they're taking the end game right now. Mechanics like Heart/Gaol/Conflag/Twin adds all encourage the ability to go into "blow shit up mode" for short periods of time.

That'd make some logical sense, but we don't know if int has DR or scales back at all. What if every 20 int was another 9.3% increase in damage? You can make the argument that IR/Blood will scale up better than int at some point, but until someone is actually in full ilvl 90 armor w/ allagan weapon to do the testing, I'm holding my judgement. I like theorycrafting as much as anyone else, but I try to be practical above that.

And the one point I did mention is how THM is a better burst damage dealer than BLM without sacrificing too much overall dps.

tl;dr Is 20 int stat loss with full i90 gear still 9.x% dmg decrease? Or does it scale back with DR.

ZProtoss · Sep 30, 2013

kaosu_sl said:
tl;dr Is 20 int stat loss with full i90 gear still 9.x% dmg decrease? Or does it scale back with DR.

You don't need DR for it to scale back. It's just what percentage of 20 int is relative to the rest of your stats and your weapon damage. The % based abilities in blood for blood/internal release will always increase by a flat percentage and thus perfectly scale/stack with any weapon/gear upgrades. It's not just the Allagan gear either. Buffs like 20% damage mean more raw damage (relative to 20 int) when being used on a 69 damage weapon as opposed to a 63 damage weapon.

I don't think you can come up with a scenario where its better to be BLM over THM given Allagan gear. 20 int just isn't worth that much at that point.

Malakriss · Sep 30, 2013

Ignore cooldowns, consider raw scaling of Umbral Fire III with higher gear first. Then you can rub one out thinking about damage and crit cooldowns on top of that.

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

Mazim_sl said:
You have really bad tanks or you are over healing a lot. I wouldn't be suprised if over healing has additional threat of some sort.

Heh, got to love back seat gamers they are the best.

Yes ,dumbass overhealing causes threat.... You obviously have no experience in this game, are just mentally retarded.
There's a little thing called a threat meter that tells you exactly what is going on in the game.

And that was an explanation of the things white mages have to think about constantly.
My FC's tanks and our healers our fine, weve been in coils on turn 5 for awhile gearing up, while douches like you make comment on the sidelines.

Alkorin · Sep 30, 2013

Mazim_sl said:
You have really bad tanks or you are over healing a lot. I wouldn't be suprised if over healing has additional threat of some sort.

He's correct. Coil aggro is another beast entirely. Our healers get aggro now and then because they simply can't stop healing without notice, or we'll very likely die within seconds.

Disclaimer: I'm not a bad tank, and neither is the other tank in my Coil group.

Cinge · Sep 30, 2013

Yeah healing aggro is not cool. Even worse their de-aggro is the same ability as their mana return. Nothing like 1 small heal landing between turn 4 spawns and healer goes splat even with a tank on it.

As too the THM part, I will wait to see some numbers and not just napkin theory-crafting.

ZProtoss · Sep 30, 2013

cinge_sl said:
As too the THM part, I will wait to see some numbers and not just napkin theory-crafting.

"Napkin Theory Crafting"

If you think even on a face value that 20ish int needs to be tested vs 2 of the most powerful buffs in the game, you are on crack.

Column_sl · Sep 30, 2013

Protoss what does 20 int give you as an extra stat?

for instance mind by itself doesnt effect WHM healing that much, but it sets the healing potency score.
Healing potency gives a shitload of healing.

So when you take out 20 int are you losing an even more important stat?

Mazim · Sep 30, 2013

Column_sl said:
Heh, got to love back seat gamers they are the best.

Yes ,dumbass overhealing causes threat.... You obviously have no experience in this game, are just mentally retarded.
There's a little thing called a threat meter that tells you exactly what is going on in the game.

And that was an explanation of the things white mages have to think about constantly.
My FC's tanks and our healers our fine, weve been in coils on turn 5 for awhile gearing up, while douches like you make comment on the sidelines.

Calm down. No need to ignore the actual help in my post. I'll leave it at that, so you don't get all self conscious on me again.

Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

Bronze Knight of the Realm

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Vyemm Raider

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Blackwing Lair Raider

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Blackwing Lair Raider

Molten Core Raider

Golden Knight of the Realm

Bronze Knight of the Realm

Golden Squire

Golden Baronet of the Realm

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Chancellor Alkorin

Part-Time Sith

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Golden Squire

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Golden Knight of the Realm