Fires of Heaven and our continued disappointment

I feel like if GW2 had an actual endgame like traditional MMO's. It would almost be the ideal MMO for todays climate.

Pogi.G said:

EQ and WOW were definitely the best, and I think for an MMO to succeed today, there needs to be a solid merger of the two. One that is less of a grindy time sync but slower gear progression also while having the requirement of solid group content that creates community. In other words, a unicorn that is never going to exist.

Just my worthless 2 cents.

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I used to be a big proponent of group-based content, but as I get older and have more responsibilities in life, I just don't see requiring group-based content to progress in a MMORPG as being sustainable game design. It only truly works for the youngest of players (or no lifers) that have no responsibilities in life outside of playing a game. Overtime, it leads to more and more of your customer base leaving the game due to not being able to dedicate enough time to the game.

I think that if they were to move to a design where the majority of the game can be done solo including "dungeons" (not instance runs... screw instance runs. When I say dungeons, I mean like old EQ dungeons... static zones with respawning mobs) with the really cool stuff being in 1 to 2 group raid instances, that would be idea. That way, you can play the game and advance your character, work on quests/factions/crafting/etc that gives your character some above normal benefit for WHEN you decide to go do a raid (like farming rare components that make your spells more powerful or something), and then you can have a set schedule like a Friday night or Sunday afternoon where you and your friends meet up to run a raid instance.

To me, that would be an ideal MMORPG experience.

If I had to sit with LFG up for hours to get a group in order to simply level my character, I would be out. That was ok 20 years ago, but it simply is not ok now.

uniqueuser said:

Asian MMOs have been trash since the very start and always will be.

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To you. Again, this thread is and always will be a bunch of boomers screaming around the campfire about their glory days at Polk High and "how it used to be". I'll never forget when my dad first saw me playing Lords of the Realm II at 11 years old and thought computer games were "dumb". He couldn't fathom how it was better than a game like Pitfall. Times change, grandpa. Just because you don't enjoy/"get" it doesn't mean it isn't good or enjoyable to others.

RobXIII said:

everything is known about them and the leveling / gear process turns into one long, boring Work List.

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Yeah, that definitely doesn't happen nowadays in the West with literally every genre...

Daidraco said:

Arent there semi popular indie dev MMO games like that? Albion Online? Crowfall? One of those. I mean, the theory is neat. Sort of like an MMO based Roguelike game. Each season, you collect inherent bonuses that arent "life changing" but enough that if you were a lvl 1 fighting rats in Freeport, you would be killing lvl 3 rats instead. Longevity / legacy alternate advancement - a single point a season, and perks that cost like 5 points that add a proc effect to your attacks that scales off level. Max level being the only requirement to get to the seasons reward point, or something. Idk. But I would try it if the day to day gameplay was great.

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What Mist described is essentially what the "MMO-lite" genre of survival games has become. A game like Rust can pretty much do everything she described.

Pharone said:

I used to be a big proponent of group-based content, but as I get older and have more responsibilities in life, I just don't see requiring group-based content to progress in a MMORPG as being sustainable game design. It only truly works for the youngest of players (or no lifers) that have no responsibilities in life outside of playing a game. Overtime, it leads to more and more of your customer base leaving the game due to not being able to dedicate enough time to the game.

I think that if they were to move to a design where the majority of the game can be done solo including "dungeons" (not instance runs... screw instance runs. When I say dungeons, I mean like old EQ dungeons... static zones with respawning mobs) with the really cool stuff being in 1 to 2 group raid instances, that would be idea. That way, you can play the game and advance your character, work on quests/factions/crafting/etc that gives your character some above normal benefit for WHEN you decide to go do a raid (like farming rare components that make your spells more powerful or something), and then you can have a set schedule like a Friday night or Sunday afternoon where you and your friends meet up to run a raid instance.

To me, that would be an ideal MMORPG experience.

If I had to sit with LFG up for hours to get a group in order to simply level my character, I would be out. That was ok 20 years ago, but it simply is not ok now.

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EQ's "pace" worked at the time because gaming tech and especially internet technology was in its infancy. We didn't know any better, because all we had for context were games of the time. It's no different than when an MMO/game releases now, it's almost immediately lambasted as "shallow" or lacking content because it's being compared to other MMOs/games with 10+ years of updates, mechanics tweaks, etc. People only "accept" a certain standard anymore, because our gaming options are nearly limitless in 2023.

EQ also had the fact that social media didn't really exist. Sure, you had some minor things like AOL chatrooms, IRC, ICQ, etc., but nothing on the level of entire social networks like we see with Facebook, IG, TikTok, etc. Internet access was also very limited amongst the US, let alone the globe. Now, broadband access is in the pockets of basically everyone, including dirt farmers in the middle of Africa. So, EQ also served as a pseudo social media "network" during those times where you were LFG, waiting for respawns, waiting for a raid to assemble, etc. Nowadays, people just hop over to Discord and want time in the game spent actually playing the game, not interacting with a graphical chatroom - because there are countless options to "network" now.

I honestly believe it has less to do with the amount of time people are willing to invest and simply the fact that technology has moved on. We want our games to do more things now. Look at the countless hours people pour into shit like Lost Ark, PoE, etc. If the game is fun/interacive enough, people will invest. But, people aren't going to invest in a glorified chatroom just because that was "cutting edge" technology 25+ years ago and now their nostalgic 17 year old self is wrestling with the existentialism of their 40+ year old self, telling themselves that it "used to be better!". The same way I wouldn't expect people to "invest" in a robust VHS collection in 2023 either - technology moved on and there are better options.

The VR MMO that drops while we're all in retirement homes is gonna be lit

Lambourne said:

You can't really focus your game on both at the same time so you're always leaving behind part of the audience. I think WoW started out mostly as a sandbox and moved heavily into the raider category over time. The genre's "roleplay" origins in 90s computer RPGs and tabletop AD&D fell completely by the wayside. Raid focused players kept playing, sandboxers started leaving.

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WoW was never what you'd call a sandbox game. It's derived from EQ, and EQ in turn is descended from a category of MUDs in which the world merely plays backdrop to a monster-bashing simulation and players have no ability or tools to do anything meaningful outside that context. The focus on raiding in WoW is just a necessity of the fruitless "elder game".

Kirun said:

To you. Again, this thread is and always will be a bunch of boomers screaming around the campfire about their glory days at Polk High and "how it used to be". I'll never forget when my dad first saw me playing Lords of the Realm II at 11 years old and thought computer games were "dumb". He couldn't fathom how it was better than a game like Pitfall. Times change, grandpa. Just because you don't enjoy/"get" it doesn't mean it isn't good or enjoyable to others.

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Funny take considering you're just a boomer-in-denial who thinks frantically mashing buttons in the MMO equivalent of a watered-down fighting game is surfing the wave of the future.

The fact is there's very little difference between WoW, whichever Korean grinder Kirun plays his Buscemi-hello-fellow-kids.jpg routine in, and 99% of MMOs made in the last 25 years. They're all sagging branches on the same aging evolutionary tree, depleting the surrounding soil and blanketing the sparse underbrush in its massive shadow as it refuses to die. Until that tree finally collapses under its own weight and rots on the forest floor there won't be any promising new growth, which is really what's at the root of this collective disappointment. No one who can see a better future would prefer to relive the past.

Ultimately video games are an enormous waste of time.

Especially MMO's, is it ok to take some time for yourself and put it toward you own satisfaction?

Sure, but the average gamer is just and only that. By comparison how many Cinophiles exist, that spend as much time consuming, and not producing?

MMO's are the height of this deficiency, they force time sinks with grinds, and bottle necks.

at least single player games have definite ends

Voyce said:

Ultimately video games are an enormous waste of time.

Especially MMO's, is it ok to take some time for yourself and put it toward you own satisfaction?

Sure, but the average gamer is just and only that. By comparison how many Cinophiles exist, that spend as much time consuming, and not producing?

MMO's are the height of this deficiency, they force time sinks with grinds, and bottle necks.

at least single player games have definite ends

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Not sure what your point is. Most hobbies are a "waste of time" if you for some reason ignore the fun and enjoyment you get from them.

And why is spending 1000 hours between 40 single player games better than the same amount of time in 1?

Ambiturner said:

And why is spending 1000 hours between 40 single player games better than the same amount of time in 1?

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Because maybe in between you’ll stop doing it for 20 minutes, so your fat ass can touch some grass

uniqueuser said:

Funny take considering you're just a boomer-in-denial who thinks frantically mashing buttons in the MMO equivalent of a watered-down fighting game is surfing the wave of the future.

The fact is there's very little difference between WoW, whichever Korean grinder Kirun plays his Buscemi-hello-fellow-kids.jpg routine in, and 99% of MMOs made in the last 25 years. They're all sagging branches on the same aging evolutionary tree, depleting the surrounding soil and blanketing the sparse underbrush in its massive shadow as it refuses to die. Until that tree finally collapses under its own weight and rots on the forest floor there won't be any promising new growth, which is really what's at the root of this collective disappointment. No one who can see a better future would prefer to relive the past.

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How dare you kids have any fun with your new, button mashing shit games!!! If only you knew how fun it REALLY was back in the day, staring at a fucking spellbook for 20 minutes between each 10 minute fight with trash mobs! What a thrill!

Ambiturner said:

Not sure what your point is. Most hobbies are a "waste of time" if you for some reason ignore the fun and enjoyment you get from them.

And why is spending 1000 hours between 40 single player games better than the same amount of time in 1?

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As he said, at least single-player games have a defined conclusion. So it comes down to whether you enjoy being the rat in a maze or the hamster on a wheel (or for our Asian MMO fans, the gerbil up Richard Gere's ass).

mkopec said:

I just turned 50 and have plenty of time to waste on games. I work, I play, I exercise, I have a family. My kids are now older and I get them to do the shit work around the house I used to have to do. I still cook almost every night, I go shopping for food etc.. And yet I still have plenty of time to spend on games. Especially even better now since I work from home 3 of 5 days lol. I set myself up with a job that does not have me do much, but when it does I have to get shit done. Last MMO I was into for a while was New world. Spent almost 700 hours in that game in the span of a few months (During COVID shudowns). I have over 1800 hours in Destiny 2, spanning many years of course. And many single player games of all sorts, mainly rpg types. Its just what I do for enjoyment and escape the drudgery of day to day work life. And when im not playing games I like to watch others play. Games are what I enjoy, even watching someone else play.

Some choose to watch sport balls of all sorts, some choose reading, some choose TV, some choose to drink in bars, I mean most people have their downtime activities they enjoy. I simply enjoy games.

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Cybsled said:

They can't be dead if they never lived at all. They were cryptids

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We had EQ Next's demo thing, where we were able to play EQ's version of Mine Craft. You could collect the items to make a better and better mining pick too! Aside from that...

The best VHS movie is still better than some new terrible Adam Sandler movie

Ambiturner said:

Not sure what your point is. Most hobbies are a "waste of time" if you for some reason ignore the fun and enjoyment you get from them.

And why is spending 1000 hours between 40 single player games better than the same amount of time in 1?

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Hm, most hobbies produce something that is the result of time spent. Games, whether MMO's or single player, produce nothing outside of the game.

Zindan said:

Hm, most hobbies produce something that is the result of time spent. Games, whether MMO's or single player, produce nothing outside of the game.

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And a lot don't, so not sure why anyone would think video games are unique in that.

MMOs at least have a social interaction aspect that single player games don't.

Sylas said:

What AAA MMOs were cancelled? You gave a bunch of examples of low budget indy mmos

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The ones you no longer play.

uniqueuser said:

WoW was never what you'd call a sandbox game. It's derived from EQ, and EQ in turn is descended from a category of MUDs in which the world merely plays backdrop to a monster-bashing simulation and players have no ability or tools to do anything meaningful outside that context. The focus on raiding in WoW is just a necessity of the fruitless "elder game".


Funny take considering you're just a boomer-in-denial who thinks frantically mashing buttons in the MMO equivalent of a watered-down fighting game is surfing the wave of the future.

The fact is there's very little difference between WoW, whichever Korean grinder Kirun plays his Buscemi-hello-fellow-kids.jpg routine in, and 99% of MMOs made in the last 25 years. They're all sagging branches on the same aging evolutionary tree, depleting the surrounding soil and blanketing the sparse underbrush in its massive shadow as it refuses to die. Until that tree finally collapses under its own weight and rots on the forest floor there won't be any promising new growth, which is really what's at the root of this collective disappointment. No one who can see a better future would prefer to relive the past.

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The rise in APM in MMO's hasn't been able to piss me off. The APM in SC2 however was a disgrace. Professional player APM in SC1 capped at around 100 APM base.

Base competitive APM in SC2 was 300 APM. TRIPLE the APM, really Blizzard?!? That's fucking horrific design and killed the competitive aspect of the game for a lot of people. Which is why when I check my friendlist everyone is playing SC1, a game they can actually enjoy still.

Wait for the Microsoft merger to go through and they announce they have to kill off legacy projects that don't produce money because it's a reason people won't buy the latest garbage.

Nirgon said:

The best VHS movie is still better than some new terrible Adam Sandler movie

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True.

Zindan said:

Hm, most hobbies produce something that is the result of time spent. Games, whether MMO's or single player, produce nothing outside of the game.

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that's a pretty soft-brained take.
I'd argue that games of all kinds, but especially the text based muds I got started on as a kid, have helped to broaden my vocabulary, improve my typing speed, expand my imagination, introduce me to people I'm very close with 30 years later, not to mention the tangential experience you get from things emulate in games, like flying a plane etc.