GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Kaige said:

I thought people had to be dead to use their face.

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Well, Arya see's her own face when she's peeling off the faces after Jaqen drinks the poison and she's alive so....perhaps there is some sort of condition that can be met that can allow them to use the face of a living person.

"I am gonna go with Occam's Razor. Bran the all-knowing says "you're dead bitch", and you are in fact a dead bitch. All other variables being held constant, it is the simplest answer."

Ya and Baelish is wayyyy to fucking smart to stay in the place where he's told that he's dead. Also, Bran isn't all knowing but he does know a lot. Just because he knows a random line that Baelish once only said to one other person doesn't mean he knows literally everything Baelish has done or is capable of.

In fact, the chaos is a ladder scene made it clear to me that Baelish will in fact sit on the throne.


"I think the whole point of his demise was to show his own arrogance of how well he thought he could manipulate people. He thought he could turn sisters against each other, and even though they are on very different paths it showed the inner loyalty between two of the few remaining Starks."

I thought so too at first but now I'm pretty sure he was just seeing to what extent he could trust Sansa.



This scene IMO shows that Baelish knows exactly what Sansa/Arya are up to. He says he likes to play game to understand a persons motives and that he assumes the worst.

Merrith said:

It's not the first time he's overstepped, or thought he was in control.



LF does well manipulating those that are not really "playing the game" or who aren't very good at it. But even from their famous "Chaos is a Ladder" scene/speech, it always seemed to me that Varys was the craftier of the two schemers...and that Baelish would inevitably overreach.

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I would have agreed with you at one point but now I realize that LF has always been in control. Did Cersei kill him in that scene? No. Did she imprison him or anything of the sort? No. Didn't even so much as put a scratch on him. He knew he could get away with saying what he said and he did. That's because LF knows exactly how far he is able to overstep without repercussion.

Idk how you come away with thinking Varys is the craftier of the two in the Chaos is a Ladder scene when it couldn't have possibly made it clearer that it's LF who's the one in charge. I mean he flat out says he's counted every single sword in the iron throne and had Varys' spy killed. He even lays out the method through which he has been able to achieve his success by saying chaos is a ladder. He's the one that has been sowing all of the chaos, not Varys. He's the one that had Lord Arryn killed, had Ned killed, had Joffrey poisoned. He's the one who bankrupted the kingdom and cooked the books to make himself the equivalent of a billionaire.

George RR Martin is even quoted as saying "to what ends, only Littlefinger knows".



You can just tell by the way Martin talks about LF that LF is in fact the ultimate player of the game.

Lumi said:

In fact, the chaos is a ladder scene made it clear to me that Baelish will in fact sit on the throne.

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Nah, it only made it clear he's a schemer who will always reach too high, while Varys is the one who truly influences the important parts.

Lumi said:

I would have agreed with you at one point but now I realize that LF has always been in control. Did Cersei kill him in that scene? No. Did she imprison him or anything of the sort? No. Didn't even so much as put a scratch on him. He knew he could get away with saying what he said and he did. That's because LF knows exactly how far he is able to overstep without repercussion.

Idk how you come away with thinking Varys is the craftier of the two in the Chaos is a Ladder scene when it couldn't have possibly made it clearer that it's LF who's the one in charge. I mean he flat out says he's counted every single sword in the iron throne and had Varys' spy killed. He even lays out the method through which he has been able to achieve his success by saying chaos is a ladder. He's the one that has been sowing all of the chaos, not Varys. He's the one that had Lord Arryn killed, had Ned killed, had Joffrey poisoned. He's the one who bankrupted the kingdom and cooked the books to make himself the equivalent of a billionaire.

George RR Martin is even quoted as saying "to what ends, only Littlefinger knows".



You can just tell by the way Martin talks about LF that LF is in fact the ultimate player of the game.

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I'm sure Martin was playing up LF for that scene, but whenever I see that scene, it's clear LF has the thing he wants more than anything, and it'll eventually be his downfall. You list all of the people he killed, and none were really "playing the game" or any good at it. In the end, his ideas were too big for him, and he thought he controlled too much.

He didn't know he could get away with it in that scene with Cersei, she was showing him she could simply kill him, because she had real power. Why do you think LF ended up running away from KL with Sansa? He knew he would never be the top player there with Cersei alive, and had to try another way. He was able to manipulate Lysa because she was in love with him, and Robin was even easier. But eventually he taught Sansa too much about playing the game, and thought he had too much control over her. Enter Bran and Arya, with their special abilities, and you had a man reaching for too much, undone by his desires.

It's why Varys in the "Chaos" scene tells him "thwarting him (LF) has never been my primary ambition", and offers subtle warnings about seeking the Iron Throne...calling it ugly and the Lysa Arryn of chairs. He knows where LF's desires are going to end up. He's quietly pointing out he doesn't ever seek to stop LF's aims b/c they are useful in their own way. When LF scorns love, duty to the realm, etc in his speech...claiming only the climb up the ladder is real, he's foreshadowing what will eventually be his downfall. Believing Sansa will buy in to that over her family was his failure.

Merrith said:

Nah, it only made it clear he's a schemer who will always reach too high, while Varys is the one who truly influences the important parts.

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The important parts? Virtually every single major event in the entire story was either directly or indirectly caused by LF. No clue what you're talking about.

Lumi said:

The important parts? Virtually every single major event in the entire story was either directly or indirectly caused by LF. No clue what you're talking about.

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Are we talking about show LF/Varys or book version? There have been some big differences between the two. LF and Lysa colluding to kill her husband and implicate the Lannisters to Cat may have started everything (at least, everything not involving Dany), but when it came to the major players that are left, Varys still has some influence, while LF just got himself killed.

Truthfully, the MAJOR event in the story so far that we know was orchestrated by Rhaegar and Ned, by hiding Jon (Aegon).

Denamian said:

Now this is truly autistic off season discussion. Looking forward to another year of it before we can start bitching about how bad the final season is.

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We must find out how deep the Littlefinger fanboy hole Lumi goes. Given that it's Lumi...

Merrith said:

Nah, it only made it clear he's a schemer who will always reach too high, while Varys is the one who truly influences the important parts.

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Merrith said:

Are we talking about show LF/Varys or book version? There have been some big differences between the two. LF and Lysa colluding to kill her husband and implicate the Lannisters to Cat may have started everything (at least, everything not involving Dany), but when it came to the major players that are left, Varys still has some influence, while LF just got himself killed.

Truthfully, the MAJOR event in the story so far that we know was orchestrated by Rhaegar and Ned, by hiding Jon (Aegon).

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The entire war of the five kings is started by LF. He's basically the richest man in the world in secret from being Master of Coin. He betrays Ned and I wouldn't be surprised if it was him who convinced Joffrey to have Ned beheaded. He was the one who devised the plan to assassinate Joffrey, poisoning him using a poison known to be used by faceless men. He married then killed Lysa, ceasing control of the Veil by secretly manipulating Robin.

In every encounter between LF and Varys we see LF owning Varys.



This is the first talk they have. Every one of these scenes always begins with LF looking at the throne showing us just how obsessed LF is with ending up on it. Look at Varys' face when LF says he's seen him even more recently than Varys has seen him. Was a "how the fuck could he possibly know that?" look on his face. Which brings me to my next theory.

I think LF is a faceless man.



We are shown the duel between Arya and Brienne as a means to show us just how skilled Arya actually is. She's able to best one of the most skilled knights in the entire world. Then in this scene we see Arya spying on LF. We see LF talking to a girl and it sounds like she says "your time is up" and he hands her a single coin which could be a coin of Braavos like the one Arya had and that the girl LF was talking to could be a faceless. We are also shown that LF was aware of her presence. Then we see her spying again and LF says "Lady Stark thanks you for your service", specifically saying Lady Stark and not just "thank you for your service" because he knows Arya is there and listening. Then we see that LF was actually spying on Arya and that she had no clue. So not only is LF able to detect Arya spying on him easily when she's suppose to be a master of stealth but he's easily able to spy on her unseen. This tells me that LF is actually a grand master level faceless man himself and far more skilled than Arya. LF left not long after Bran said chaos is a ladder and faked his death 100%.

And the answer is REALLY deep down the LF fanboy hole

Not sure engaging is a particularly good idea, but the main difference between Baelish and Varys is that Littlefingers like to just stir up shit and take advantage of what happens, while Varys is looking for a specific outcome. Also Brienne isn't a knight.

brekk said:

Yes she is.

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She's never been knighted so no she isn't.

Wait so Ser Pounce isn’t a real knight? FUCK YOU GURRM

Dollars to donuts lumi views himself as a LF type of person irl

Brikker said:

Dollars to donuts lumi views himself as a LF type of person irl

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No not really. I'd say I'm more like Bran but I understand people like LF.

Lumi said:

No not really. I'd say I'm more like Bran but I understand people like LF.

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Because...you can talk to trees and look into the future and the past?

Merrith said:

Because...you can talk to trees and look into the future and the past?

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Because he broke his back and can't use his legs obviously. Don't be judgemental and shitty!