GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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chaos

chaos

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Tommen sure does, so does Stannis. Not that it matters, it seems the more legitimate a claim to the throne is the more "the realm" suffers for that person's hubris. And the theme that I got from the books was that ALL claims to the throne are bullshit. The Targs got theirs with dragons, without that they have no claim. The Baratheons through rebellion, the Lannisters through deception, no one really "deserves" the Iron Throne.

Tywin cares about stability for sure, that is his aim in installing his family to the throne. I still don't understand how that is different from Varys. He doesn't care about the realm, only what is in the interest of the Targs/Blackfyres/whoever. He cares about his schemes, not the people or the 7 kingdoms.
 
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Zhaun_sl

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chaos_sl said:
Tommen sure does, so does Stannis. Not that it matters, it seems the more legitimate a claim to the throne is the more "the realm" suffers for that person's hubris. And the theme that I got from the books was that ALL claims to the throne are bullshit. The Targs got theirs with dragons, without that they have no claim. The Baratheons through rebellion, the Lannisters through deception, no one really "deserves" the Iron Throne.
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The Targs got theirs by conquering 6 of the 7 kingdoms with those dragons, and the 7th through marriage until all 7 declared fealty to the one Targ king... which is how one becomes king of things.

Robert became king because after all the Targs were "dead" he was the popular rebellion leader and had claim to Targ blood through his grandfather or something. Then again, everyone swore fealty to Robert.
 
BrutulTM

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chaos_sl said:
Tywin cares about stability for sure, that is his aim in installing his family to the throne. I still don't understand how that is different from Varys. He doesn't care about the realm, only what is in the interest of the Targs/Blackfyres/whoever. He cares about his schemes, not the people or the 7 kingdoms.
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There is nothing to base any of these statements on. We only have Varys' word that he wants what is best in the long run for the most people, but when he is already on the small council it doesn't make sense to tear the whole world apart and secretly raise a child and teach him to be a virtuous king from birth just on the off chance that you might be able to control him a bit more than you could control the current king. I have no idea what you would base the idea that Tywin "cares about stability" on. He cares about his family getting rich and being in control. If he cared about stability he would have let Rob have the North and not turned the Mountain loose to rape and pillage commoners.

Tommen's only claim on the throne is based on the lie that he is Bobby B's son, which everyone now knows is not true. Stannis has the only real claim of succession, but he is buried in a snowdrift not in a position to do shit about it. It's true that the "claim" to the throne is meaningless without the power to back it up. You have to either be strong enough that no one can challenge you (having a dragon is the best way) or have the support of all the other significant powers (nearly impossible).
 
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elidib

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chaos_sl said:
I haven't seen a way to interpret that yet aside from Aegon being fake/Blackfyre.
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Aegon is being brought to power by Varys. Varys used to be a mummer. the mummer's dragon.

I can give credence to both sides of the debate, but I for one think Aegon is real. I also think that he's going to continue to gain traction and ultimately end up with Dany.
 
chaos

chaos

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BrutulTM_sl said:
There is nothing to base any of these statements on. We only have Varys' word that he wants what is best in the long run for the most people, but when he is already on the small council it doesn't make sense to tear the whole world apart and secretly raise a child and teach him to be a virtuous king from birth just on the off chance that you might be able to control him a bit more than you could control the current king. I have no idea what you would base the idea that Tywin "cares about stability" on. He cares about his family getting rich and being in control. If he cared about stability he would have let Rob have the North and not turned the Mountain loose to rape and pillage commoners.

Tommen's only claim on the throne is based on the lie that he is Bobby B's son, which everyone now knows is not true. Stannis has the only real claim of succession, but he is buried in a snowdrift not in a position to do shit about it. It's true that the "claim" to the throne is meaningless without the power to back it up. You have to either be strong enough that no one can challenge you (having a dragon is the best way) or have the support of all the other significant powers (nearly impossible).
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Tywin was already rich and in control. His whole purpose for fighting the war was to get the kingdoms stable so his brood can rule it. He's trying to bring the kingdoms to heel, Varys is working to instill chaos wherever he can because he wants everything unstable for when his people get here.

There's no real proof that Tommen isn't Robert's kid. We know, lots of people know, but on paper he IS Robert's kid. I think Tywin could have gotten there, he could have united everyone except the Martells and he probably could have beaten them. Maybe not, they did manage to hold off the Targs but I don't remember it ever saying how they did that.
 
Z

Zhaun_sl

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Tommen doesn't have the support of Dorne, plus whoever is loyal to Stannis and the few left over loyal to the Starks. Also I don't recall if the Iron Islands have sided or given up at the end there, they're still independant, yes? Also the whole of the Vale has been stuck in neutral this entire time still, yes? I guess little Rob/Robin is in charge but how many banners will come to his call with Littlefinger holding his leash is unclear.
 
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Chrisd_sl

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elidib_sl said:
Aegon is being brought to power by Varys. Varys used to be a mummer. the mummer's dragon.

I can give credence to both sides of the debate, but I for one think Aegon is real. I also think that he's going to continue to gain traction and ultimately end up with Dany.
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The cloth dragon goes with slayer of lies.
 
Grimmlokk

Grimmlokk

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Astr0creep_sl said:
Dragons boost magic. Dragons themselves are magical. So varys is pro magic. Its the maesters who hate it. Varys is pretending
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Or maybe they don't put quite as much stock as you in the well known scientific transitive property of dragon magic...

Astr0creep_sl said:
Young aegon is fake? When did this happen?
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Don't think anyone else responded: This isn't a known thing, just a widely accepted thing. He's at best a Blackfyre bastard and at worst a byblow of Illyrio who just happens to have the right looks. One of the Tyrion chapters mentions one of Illyrio's slave bitches having the violet eyes and a lot of people latched on to that as a hint that lil' Aegon(it's his rapper name) is Illyrio's son and him and Varys are conspiring to put him on the throne.

There's some merit there. The fact they've had him trained to be a good king lends credence to the idea that Varys would see putting him on the throne as good for the realm(which he explained to Kevan). Whether or not Varys thinks/knows he might just be Illyrio's kid is up for debate.
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That aside, I see we have once again gone in to the argument of what's good for the realm. And ascribing our own stupid and unrelated values to what fictional charactersSHOULDbe thinking.



Joy.
 
chaos

chaos

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You're goddamn right joy. It isn't as if we have a whole hell of a lot to discuss for the next few days, anyway.
 
chaos

chaos

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If you think this show goes on for 11 seasons you're smoking crack. You're lucky to get 8. At that point salaries are going to be very high, and rightfully so, and it will be very difficult to continue. Shit, salaries are going to be pretty damn high after season 4.
 
Grimmlokk

Grimmlokk

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OK let me shut it down then(LOL!): People in Westeros have WILDLY different ideas of what is good for the realm. None of them line up exactly wit what you(Yes, YOU) think they should be. Some of them think real long term and that thousands dying today will save millions over the next hundred years. Others think the rightful ruler being in charge is what matters. None of them are right, or wrong. Either are you, because you are an asshole on the internet debating the motives of characters who don't think like you!

In closing, Hodor is the only man fit to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Fuck you and fuck your mother.
 
chaos

chaos

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GRIMM IS SALTY BROS! But yeah that was pretty much my point, all of these fuckers think they are working for the greater good and all of them do or cause horrible shit. Who the hell knows what they think? But we know what they do.

Hodor has a pretty flimsy claim to the throne but Littlefinger is probably looking for someone in his vein to sponsor.
 
chaos

chaos

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Finally someone recognizes me for what I am!

Seriously though, we've all been watching tv a while, we have all seen this very thing happen. They signed them for 4 (or was it 5?) seasons, the show gets successful, the actors want a larger share. I can't think of any successful shows that haven't gone through that, and not a single premium cable show that went on for anything rivaling 11 seasons.Especially nothing as expensive (relatively) as GoT.
 
Lightning Lord Rule

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I like to think of it as Littlefinger works to cause chaos, and Varys works to achieve order (once people are out of his way). LF wants chaos because that is the environment he thrives in, he is masterful in reading things on the fly and finding every little edge to bring him closer to his goal, which is (IMO) putting himself on the Iron Throne.

Varys believes in order, but with LF working for chaos at every turn, he has to play LF's game until the time is right to bring overwhelming force on him and achieve his order and then peace. Under Targ rule since Aegon the conqueror, there was quite a long time of relative peace iirc. (The odd rebellion notwithstanding, since the odd rebellion doesn't typically involve all 7 kingdoms). This is the state of things that Varys wants to return to.

He's playing the long game for sure though, and it's unclear who will win, LF or Varys. Plus, I don't think either one of them has the Others/White Walkers figured into things.
 
chaos

chaos

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I'm honestly terrible at subtext with these books. I completely missed Frey pies and The Hound at the monastery. Probably other shit too. I have no fucking idea what is going to happen, at all. The only things I know for certain are that Jon Snow is not dead and that Arya better fuck shit up or I am firebombing Martin's collectibles house he has right across from his home in Santa Fe.
 
M

Merkins4Brazil_sl

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Arent most HBO series shot with Brit actors because they get paid WAY less than U.S. counter parts? Most Brit actors seems to love getting a Pay Cable gig in hopes of breaking into US TV and cashing in.
 
Talos

Talos

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BrutulTM_sl said:
I have no idea what you would base the idea that Tywin "cares about stability" on. He cares about his family getting rich and being in control. If he cared about stability he would have let Rob have the North and not turned the Mountain loose to rape and pillage commoners.
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Why wouldn't he want the realm to be peaceful and stable while his family is rich and in control? He wants both. Also, there's no guarantee giving Rob the North would ensure stability. It's more likely with the Boltons (which is what happens). He unleashed the Mountain because Ser Gregor is fucking terrifying and brutal. Tywin meant to use him as a tool to quickly beat people into submission.

Lightning Lord Rule_sl said:
I like to think of it as Littlefinger works to cause chaos, and Varys works to achieve order (once people are out of his way). LF wants chaos because that is the environment he thrives in, he is masterful in reading things on the fly and finding every little edge to bring him closer to his goal, which is (IMO) putting himself on the Iron Throne.

Varys believes in order, but with LF working for chaos at every turn, he has to play LF's game until the time is right to bring overwhelming force on him and achieve his order and then peace.
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Nah bro, they both use chaos to get to order.
 
Szlia

Szlia

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As far as scheduling for the actors go, I think it's not much of an issue considering there are that many characters and that the seasons are relatively short. Most of the cast has probably less than two weeks of shooting per year.
 
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