GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
There's nothing much to explain. It's magic. It just works. Except when it doesn't. And in that case the explanation... does not change.

But don't I remember some tidbit in some version of this thread where GRRM promises this huge reveal about the world of westeros at the end of the series? Like it's ringworld or some dumb shit, but not as dumb as that. So I imagine you'll have an explanation of sorts. Just don't get all Lost Final Season about it. At best it's gonna be, "Oh. Ok. That's clever."
 

LadyVex_sl

shitlord
868
0
The Others are the physical embodiment of magic in the world; as you kill them, you remove remnants of magic. When they were pushed back, and warded from reaching humanity, magic receded. They turn wights to use as a force beyond the wall. (Since they themselves cannot pass it.)

S'all I got, although Melisandre's magic getting stronger at the wall (Or at the point closest to the Others) makes me think that theory has validity.
 

Talos

Silver Baronet of the Realm
3,843
12,223
According to a well written theory by Lithose, magic is older than the White Walkers and is not dependent on them:

I have my own theory behind the Walkers.

From what we know of Bran, the Children of the Forest are powerful magic users--the most powerful version of them are Greenseers. (One in a thousand would men might be wargs and one in a thousand wargs, greenseers). Now, in the books it's confirmed Wargs have big variances in power ranges, particularly powerful Wargs can jump into other humans, and completely inhabit their bodies. Greenseers, from what we have seen, are even more powerful completely untrained (Like Bran) than even the most powerful Warg. (Bran can inhabit Hodor before any formal training or much experience AND he doesn't need to be dying to do it.) We can also see this in Bran's initial training--unlike Warg's, he can inhabit Weirwoods and see the past with them. And as we know from legends, wierwoods are the Old Gods that first men worshiped, and they had the ability to affect things around them.

This denotes that the "Old Gods" were actually Greenseers, who affected the world through wierwoods (It's intimated they could control plant and animal life through them.)...We know the Children of the Forest had some ridiculously powerful magic, and I believe the Greenseers were the ones who actually had that magic--strong enough to shatter the land bridge from Dorn, and create the marsh.

Here's the thing--we know "blood magic" is one of the most powerful forms of magic, that death pays for life and that in death, many forms of magic get stronger (Faceless need someone's face, from death--a Warg can make a "final leap", even more powerful than his normal warging, a "permanent" leap, when he's about to die ect). What if after the truce was called, and the first men adopted the Children of the Forests ways, a greenseer was born, but because he could see into the world of men, he was corrupted. Men, because of their technology (Like bringing fire with them), were so plentiful that he could use them to produce blood magic, and increase his power.

Eventually, in secret, he used blood magic to create The Others by corrupting Children of the Forest (In one chapter it's said The Others reflective armor is like the Children of the Forests armor), and then grew strong enough to take people over when they are about to die. How he did this was through blood magic, this is why he needs Crasters babies (And why the WW raid small hamlets ect, for sacrifices)--now one other baby was sacrificed in the book, Daeny's. And when that was used to save someone from death, Drogo, he came back mindless. If the Great Other is using that kind of magic to bring people back, because they are mindless, they wouldn't be able to resist him when he used his warg magic on them--so the wights are really the Great Other's blood magic wargs. (We have some evidence that controls of the wights can be resisted, as with Coldhands--now, if coldhands is Benjen, then maybe Benjen was a warg, like Bran, and due to the magic in his blood, was able to resist the "Great Other" from taking him over.)

Anyway, the Children who resisted this corruption (This is why there are almost no Children anymore, they are The Others now) and First men fight this "Great Other" but get their asses kicked. Eventually they realize they need to use Blood Magic of their own to equal him--they literally need to fight evil with evil. And we see that in every description of AA--all of his super-magic is based around the sacrifice of others, IE Blood Magic. So maybe AA was a human Greseer, who the Children taught magic because the had none of their own left, and he used blood magic to counter the Great Other. Unlike the regular Greenseers which focused their magic around Wierwoods, the AA focused it around fire (We saw in history one of the First Men's big advantages was fire). And that's how the Red God was born. He's not "good"--he is simply a counter to the Great Other using the same kind of magic.

Just my theory.
 

LadyVex_sl

shitlord
868
0
Saying The Others is the link to magic only works if you remove dragons from the equation. Maybe.
Well, the wall went up 8000 years ago, and the dragons have been extinct for 150 years. I don't think magic is as linked to the dragons as most people think. (And I mentioned this before.) I think it was a catalyst to them coming back in force, but there were many people in the book who were practicing magic. The key point is that the Others technically never left. There's many people who claim they saw the Others, and they also said magic was never as strong as it was back then, when the wall went up with the help of the children of the forest.

Realize I'm just grasping at straws; you can make a billion theories based on shit in the book, but there's just so many coincidences and with GRRM saying he'll explain it'll be something ridiculous I'm sure.

"Magic used to be an elemental force until it gained sentience and became the Others."
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
3,665
4,194
The story isn't about the Starks, but it is most often told from the perspective of the Starks. They're a narrative device. It's about a period of change in the world. The Starks, Lannisters, and Baratheons are just the most pivotal families in Westeros. The North, led by the Starks, is fighting for independence while the Baratheons claim the throne the Lannisters occupy. Everyone else is just a support character while these conflicts take center stage.
Have you read the books, or is this your opinion as a TV Viewer?
 

Uber Uberest

rdr^2
<Bronze Donator>
2,717
2,337
The Starks are the main characters, everyone else is support. If you disagree you're not watching the TV show and are probably a but hurt book reader.
 

Chrisd_sl

shitlord
169
0
The taking of Yunkai and Jon's escape scenes were incoherent. The red wedding was done pretty well.

Arya's death threat to the hound = foreshadowing.
 

Enzee

Trakanon Raider
2,197
715
uncle tully went to water a tree and never came back, we can assume nephew got ganked pre-bedding.
Did I miss something? I thought Waldor brought up the bedding ceremony because he wanted that marriage to be official at least, seemed like he wanted to get them out of there before they started the slaughtering. That, or he's keeping him hostage so the Tullys fall in line and don't try to keep the war going by using the red wedding as a way to get some previously neutral people to join their cause (like the vale? or wherever the fuck the martells and dorne are). Seems like there's a bunch of deus ex houses that will have nothing to do with a fight but then join the cause with some convincing and add some 2145274275 men.. which just HAPPENS to be enough for that side to have a chance.. Like what would have ideally happened with the Freys and Robb's army if Frey and Bolton weren't such asshats.
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
3,665
4,194
Of course the show isn't "about" them. It is about the concept of power and other vague philosophical shit like that. The Starks and Tyrion are our relatable voices in that world. Like I said, I'll be shocked if the Starks don't take us out of this story much the same way they took us in.
That's the backdrop but, not really. A Song of Ice and Fire is about Ice and Fire. Everything that's happened so far is just setting the stage for it. All the powerplay in King's Landing is as "vital" to the story as all the stuff that's gone on with the Starks. As in, it's not. it's just setting the stage. The North has to be devastated in order for the Other's to be a threat. It would be a pretty dull story if a few hundred white walkers show up to the gigantic magical wall that they cannot penetrate with their army of a few thousand wights and Ned stark shows up with 40k northern bannerman and destroys them in a fortnight, which is what would happen without the story so far eliminating the North as a powerblock.

Likewise for King's landing. Sure the plots and intrigue and betrayals are interesting to read about, but the end goal of all of that is the utter destabilization of the realm as a whole. Chaos, civil war, the realm is in complete shambles. If all the people of Westeros were all united behind a wise, just, good, and honorable king then they wouldn't need a savior to rescue them. So that's why you get Cersei.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Yea, I didn't care for the Yunkai shit. It got like 30 seconds of nonsense and done. They're really squeezing the complexity of Dany's position down to nothing.

I thought Jon's escape was decent, but it was a lot more clear cut than it was in the books as we got to see the perspective of so many characters simultaneously. Also I think he was being shot at when he escaped in the books.
 

Sumdain x

Trakanon Raider
1,558
495
before this show even started i was told "don't get too attached to anyone because they are all fair game".

I overheard a while back from some people in another cubicle talking that Robb stark dies in this book so i had been expecting it, i just didn't know how. Then i overheard something else about "the red wedding". after watching these last few episodes i assumed the red wedding was between Tyrion and Sansa (lannister red) and i wondered what the big deal was guess it all makes sense now. Also i suppose Bolton's sword on the Lannister tabard makes sense too. When the rains of castamere played i was like "someones gonna get fucked up" especially if you know the history to that song.

im not entirely sad the Starks are almost wiped out i didn't think the show centered around them anyway and i find several of the Lannisters more interesting. Won't we have more houses joining the show in the future?
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
3,665
4,194
Yea, I didn't care for the Yunkai shit. It got like 30 seconds of nonsense and done. They're really squeezing the complexity of Dany's position down to nothing.

I thought Jon's escape was decent, but it was a lot more clear cut than it was in the books as we got to see the perspective of so many characters simultaneously. Also I think he was being shot at when he escaped in the books.
Yeah he got shot by Ygritte, partly out of scorn for his betrayal of her and partly to prove to the other wildlings that she's true to them and had no knowledge of his true nature.

Also kinda miffed about the show's portrayal of the conquest of Yunkai. It's the pinnacle of dany's success and illustrates her cunning, strategy, and leadership ability. After this all that's left is Mereen and her utter incompetence there playing out for the next 4 seasons. They spread yunkai over 4 episodes just to have more episodes with Dany in them when in the books all of it happens in a single day. She arrives at yunkai facing an army larger than her own, Delivers her ultimatum to Yunkai giving them 3 days to decide, tricks one sellsword company into taking themselves out of the equation with wine, convinces the other to switch sides, and launches a surprise attack the very night she arrives, all while playing up her youthful inexperience as a "young girl new to the ways of war" basically trolling them all and then curbstomping Yunkai's defense, wiping out their entire army and losing less than 12 of her own men. And then on the 3rd day the whole "Mhysa" payoff is epic. It's like 1 chapter and they've spread it out over 4-5 episodes, dilluting her planning and contributions to her success and basically just handing shit to her on a silver platter.
 

Heckler_sl

shitlord
290
0
Behold, the pivotal moment in the book series that made me realize that GRRM was a mediocre fantasy author who relied entirely on shock value to generate reader interest. It's all downhill from here.

Thanks for the wedding crashers pic tho, im gonna go troll people on fb with that.
You sure do sound like you know what you're talking about.