GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

I still think Ned could have taken Jamie. One of the chapters in the first book I think talks about that a little, how Jamie is skilled technically but he hasn't seen war in the same way Ned or Robert or whoever have. Shit isn't the same as a tourney fight.

chaos_sl said:

how Jamie is skilled technically but he hasn't seen war in the same way Ned or Robert or whoever have. Shit isn't the same as a tourney fight.

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Jaime fought real fights to the death before, he isn't just some tourney night that never fought for real. Ned was a competent fighter, I loved the guy, but he has no shot against someone like Jaime.

Didn't Ned kill several famous oldschool Kingsguard? Jamie Lannister is better than them?

He killed those Kingsguard with his seven vs their three and almost died himself. Out of the 7, only himself and Howland Reed survived.

khalid_sl said:

He killed those Kingsguard with his seven vs their three and almost died himself. Out of the 7, only himself and Howland Reed survived.

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On that note, in books 2, one of Bran's chapters, Bran recalls Ned mentioning that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed. Cant say much more w/out spoilers. I'm not sure if it's mentioned if Ned had Ice in that battle or not, would be interesting to know.

Either way, I think its subtly hinted at in the books that Ned is a better tactician than fighter, his older bro was the beast. Ned is no pushover, but I imagine Jaime would think highly of Ned's skills considering he played a part in killing 3 of the kingdoms top alltime fighters. Nobody really knows how good a fighter Ned is because in the books we never see it first hand, while theres numerous references to Jaime's skill. One thought though, is if Ned uses Ice, and Jaime tries to block a strike, theres a very good chance of Ice breaking his sword and ruining Jaime's day.

Considering Jaime has a hard-on for Arthur Dayne, Im pretty sure he has respect for the skills of a man who took part in killing him. I can say for almost a certainty that Ned isint on Jaime's list. Jaime says theres 3 fighters in the kingdoms who can defeat him, so I would assume he means three alive people, and isint talking about legendary dead swordsman, otherwise there would be way more than 3 people on that list.

My 3 fighters who I think Jaime thinks are > than him:

1. Barristan. No question about it. Cant even be debated. Pure skills as a swordsman, more experience than anybody. Won numerous tourneys, melees, and countless heroic deeds and slaying of badasses, even at old age.

2. Gregor - Jaime states himself that hes inhumanely strong, and his sword has a much longer reach than Jaime's. Crazy amounts of battlefield expz, and Tyrion mentions he has great natural instincts and is a natural fighter. I would put Sandor in here too, and may give him the edge over Gregor, just because he is a badass, gives zero fucks, and he's a clever fighter. I forget where, but there's a part in the book where during a Sandor fight, it mentions somewhere of the lines of him being freakishly fast. He also holds off Gregor at the tourney. Sandor > Gregs IMO.

3. Garlan Tyrell - My wildcard. Its stated that he always practices against multiple opponents at once to replicate the battle environment. This guy's fo reals. Loras, while being a homo-prettyboy, is said to be an exceptional swordsman, but isin't respected by Jaime at all. That being said, its stated a few times in the books that Garlan is a far better fighter than his gay brother.

I think the two Jaime was talking about were Barristan and the Cleganes. Theres other fighters you could put on the list, but Jaime doesnt really 'know' about them, so to speak. Personally, on a good day, I think Brienne, The Halfhand, Mance, Thoros, and many others would have a fair chance of besting JL. Then again, I think Jaime's boast is only in the show, so it would have to be limited to characters on TV.

Yeah, with Ned dead he obviously didn't mean him. The impression that I got from the books is that yeah, Jamie is seriously skilled, he was considered a prodigy really. But at the same time he has not been involved in battles like some of the other guys. So a guy like Ned, who has seen some serious shit, including killing Jamie's idol, I wouldn't call him a chump and I wouldn't make any assumptions.

without going into spoilers, why havent you guys mentioned Payne the executioner of KL?

Maester Chuk_sl said:

without going into spoilers, why havent you guys mentioned Payne the executioner of KL?

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Wow, great question but I cannot say why. Instead, I will give a little bit of background info that will probably never appear in the show. This is taken from me reading between the lines, though (from a collection of small details that are written throughout the books)

Jaime respect Ilyn Payne as a knight. Payne is the kind of guy who always performs his duties without question. He is unquestionably loyal to the crown but takes no personal joy from his work. He is just an efficient executioner. Jaime knows how skilled a fighter Payne is as they have fought and/or trained alongside each other in the past. Jaime knows that he is significantly better than Payne, but would still trust him to fight alongside against lesser opponents.

Why do you guys keep saying "without going into spoilers" for this topic? I don't think there are any on "who is known to be a great swordsman".

Mentioning characters not in the show is pretty clearly not appropriate. Jaime rates Gregor and Sandor but believes he'd beat both.

The show has only shown us 3 characters that Jaime could be talking about, so there really is no debate. The cleganes and barristan. Illyn is never mentioned as an elite sword fighter. Bronn in the eyes of the audience might be someone of that level, but Jaime has no idea who Bronn is and has never met him to our knowledge. If you look at it from his point of view, he could be referring to characters not in the show yet.

The book readers have been debating the best fighters for years, kinda impossible to do it justice in a no spoiler format.

Ilyn has been in 2 seasons of this show. I do believe his battle prowess was discussed because how he lost his tongue was explained?

I dont recall his battle prowess being described in the show or the books. Joffery simply said he "speaks well with a sword" which im sure is just linked to his position as the royal executioner. He was a knight and the mad king had his tongue removed with hot pincers according to the show. The details of why the mad king did that comes from the books.

The show is usually vague about the prowess of characters where the books give them more feats to their name. Example is the omission of any reference to the tower of joy(hope that's vague enough to not be considered a spoiler) which paints Ned as possibly being pretty damn skilled. Season 3 will intoduce Thoros and it will be interesting to see if they give any background on his fighting history.

ok wasnt sure, i think i got him mixed up with the hound there.

The other thing to is Martin really likes playing with "power". He will build up someone's prowess and then show how if you just change the situation a little bit, all that strength becomes meaningless. Like how the Reed's are called "frogmen" and mocked, but in their own bogs they are feared a great deal....Or how on a battlefield, wearing armor is very important, because you can't keep all your opponents in view--so a suit of heavy armor will save your life. But in a duel, as Bronn showed, it can become a hindrance and actually be the reason someone loses. I think part of the point of seeing Jaime try to judge power was to illustrate his naivety in understanding power. All Jaime understands is who would win in a tournament, with rules and direct face offs--but power is rarely judged that way.

Also they've talked about how on any given day things can go one way or another. Any given day etc. Also not sure why everyone thinks Jaime is just a tourney fighter when he's actually fought and killed people in actual combat even as a squire to Selmy.

Thing is, Jaime might want to kill you in 1 on 1 combat...but that's what he does and takes pride in. Being better than the other guy. You might have to be more constantly on watch if Cersei was your enemy, but when you knew Jaime was coming for you you'd probably know you're fucked unless you're one of the top badass swordsmen too.

All that predicated on the fact that Selmy is old as fuck. He was full beastmode back in the day apparently!