GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

This wasn't the first mention of Egg was it? I thought that is how they unraveled that he was Aemon originally.

Gavinmad_sl said:

If she has a son with Stannis, by laws of primogeniture that son would immediately become his heir before Shireen. The only reason to kill off Shireen would be to force Stannis' hand if he doesn't want more children. Otherwise killing Shireen would be very premature, if that was indeed her plot.

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My assumption was a child with Mel would be bastard born hence wouldn't have as strong a claim. Unless that is false and a bastard born son has a stronger claim than a trueborn daughter. If she killed off Shireen then Stannis would lack an heir and his wife is unable to produce children. So Mel could try and force Stannis to divorce her (possibly kill her too who knows) to take his side as queen of Westeros.

Tenks_sl said:

My assumption was a child with Mel would be bastard born hence wouldn't have as strong a claim. Unless that is false and a bastard born son has a stronger claim than a trueborn daughter. If she killed off Shireen then Stannis would lack an heir and his wife is unable to produce children. So Mel could try and force Stannis to divorce her (possibly kill her too who knows) to take his side as queen of Westeros.

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Oh yeah I forgot Stannis still has a wife, albeit a barren one.

It's actually very hard to say who would take precedence between a trueborn daughter and a bastard son, due both to the minimal rights granted women in primogeniture and the major stigma/prejudice against bastards in Westeros. My guess is that a daughter and a bastard son have roughly an equal claim in Westeros, with the daughter perhaps having slightly higher standing, but if Stannis died without naming a preference, it would likely result in a succession war between factions trying to control Shireen and the bastard. I guess the real question is how strong the two political factions are. Who Shireen's husband was would play a pretty strong factor since he would become the de facto king.

Ironically I'm pretty sure Stannis is legally Tommen's heir to the throne.

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If Stannis became king and legitimized his son the way Ramsay was, there would be no question of succession, although assuming Shireen lived, someone could choose to press her claim to the throne.

I dont think they called him Egg before tho, just Aegon (maybe "Aegon the Unlikely"). Then there was the mention of Ser Duncan the Tall by Joffrey, but I don't think he was called Dunk either.

I thought they've gone over that and Stannis as Marcella's uncle does not have a stronger claim than Marcella (taking into considering Marcella is Robert's trueborn daughter)

Tenks_sl said:

I thought they've gone over that and Stannis as Marcella's uncle does not have a stronger claim than Marcella (taking into considering Marcella is Robert's trueborn daughter)

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This is not how primogeniture works. Even in salic primogeniture, a woman can only inherit if there is not a single living male in the line of succession. If Westeros was an absolute primogeniture, Myrcella would have inherited before Tommen and Sansa would be the legal heir of House Stark. In traditional primogeniture, at this particular moment the line of succession after Tommen would definitely be Stannis, then I think it would actually jump off to some random male scion of House Baratheon before it ever came back to Myrcella and Shireen. Myrcella and then Shireen would be the first two women in line if there were no more males in House Baratheon though.

That's why it was so direly important to have a son in cultures with primogeniture.

*edit*

Of course the politics surrounding the succession of a throne can cause things to change, since Myrcella and Shireen would be likely to have a great deal more political support than some random dude in House Baratheon. When things are running normally, women don't inherit shit, when a crown and control of a country is on the line crazy shit happens.

For example, if Young Griff really is Aegon Targaryen, his claim to the throne of Westeros is stronger than Danaerys, but unless he bonds with one of the dragons I doubt he'll go against her.

Tenks_sl said:

My assumption was a child with Mel would be bastard born hence wouldn't have as strong a claim. Unless that is false and a bastard born son has a stronger claim than a trueborn daughter. If she killed off Shireen then Stannis would lack an heir and his wife is unable to produce children. So Mel could try and force Stannis to divorce her (possibly kill her too who knows) to take his side as queen of Westeros.

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The show (and book to lesser extant) really suggest Mel doesn't give a shit about westeros traditions regarding succession. She even says in this episode that she has seen Stannis as the living king who will drive back the hordes of undead sweeping down from the north. She truly believes he is Azor Ahai, and a great war is coming between the lord of light and men and the darkness and undead, and Azor must be reborn to lead men against the undead. Thats all she cares about, not what happens after the lord of light wins.

Of course she is wrong about so much, we already pretty much know that Stannis isn't really the chosen one, that its Jon Snow or Dany or a combo probably, but more importantly its entirely possible (and likely given the book's style of deconstruction) that Mel is getting played and her "side" is actually evil and the White Walkers are somehow more like the true-neutral "cleaners" who keep the world in check, blah blah men are the true evil ones blah blah blah.

Tenks_sl said:

Then I guess I don't know the angle of killing the princess. I know Val disliked the princess because of grayscale but the only thing I could think of is Mel wants to leave Stannis with no heir and then have him father an heir with her.

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She believes all people with Baratheon blood are taking magical power away from Stannis. She likely attributes the girl surviving Greyscale to that power. She wants to sacrifice the girl to increases Stannis power.

Note Mel told Stannis she had a vision of her walking the walls of winterfell but she didn't say she had a vision of Stannis and her walking the walls of winterfell.

I think it's more black and white. She gets magikz from "royal" blood. Shireen is the only "royal" blood she has access too that isn't pumping through Stannis. She wants to use it and then she can throw out shadow babies or fire golems or magic winds or whatever she wants to do.

My money is on her Killing Stannis when Jon gets to winterfell to save Sansa. I think that's within the writing happenstance that the HBO nerds are working within. Stannis will Die a martyr for Shireens life and Jon will get a flaming sword from the sacrifice (stannis' sword, or his own bathed in stannis' blood which then lights on fire).

I was surprised they actually started discussing Melisandre's buggy fire visions this early. I thought she was about to admit her doubts about the visions in that part of the show. You could argue that Melisandre is getting pretty anxious to get another fire sacrifice at this point because in the books, this is about when she starts seeing nothing but "Snow" in the fires---implying that Jon's proximity is affecting her precognitive powers:

A Dance with Dragons_sl said:

Jon had heard all this before. "Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm's End, like his brothers." He frowned. "And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?"
"The same, I fear. Only snow."
...
"you see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

"when I search for him all I see is snow."
...
"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.
Skulls, A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was noone, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

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Of course Mel is actually WITH Stannis in the show, so maybe they elided those visions with her attempt to seduce him earlier. Or maybe we'll catch another hint of her doubts in later episodes. Either way she'll have to head back to the wall in time for Jon's death and he's off sailing to Hardhome.

I was just happy that my boy Sam finally got laid.

Well I just don't see Stannis sacrificing his daughter. Now his wife doing it for him behind his back is another question all together.

Maybe Mel will sacrifice Shireen to rez Jon. Now that would be a fun little plot line.

Kaige_sl said:

Its like they went from an HBO prime time show in quality, to reruns of Xena:Warrior Princess.

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I know opinions are subjective, but dude. This one isn't correct.

Siddar_sl said:

Well I just don't see Stannis sacrificing his daughter. Now his wife doing it for him behind his back is another question all together.

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This is what I think may happen as well.

while I dont think it's that bad, it is rather dull compared to previous seasons.

Tenks_sl said:

Maybe Mel will sacrifice Shireen to rez Jon. Now that would be a fun little plot line.

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Well I don't think Stannis will ever go along with that idea,