GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

I started skipping his posts after the first handful but those I did read seem more suited for the Book House than the show thread. I guess there aren't enough eyeballs in there to justify exposition length posts.

Sperglord_sl said:

Why are they coming down though? They reappeared roughly twenty years ago, as it took Mance that long to round up all of the wildling tribes. I mean seriously, I expected people here to be a little more intelligent and open minded. This is shit I'd expect to hear from people who have a Bill O'Reilly tattoo.

There's absolutely nothing that says that the White Walkers can only move south during a Winter, or anything of the sort, it's just a common assumption. Yes, Westeros is going to have one of the longest recorded Winters but that's a red herring, as it'd mean that -


That's so out of character for this author to just go, "hey, I created this mindlessly evil species that automatically attack humans every X amount of years because, ""they have to wait for a certain natural event!""

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lucifermeanslightbringer | The Mythical Astronomy of Ice and FireWhat if they only came south the first time because the comet fucking blew the moon up and gave the world a nuclear winter? What if they only come south again because moon number 2 eats shit and does the same? That'd fall under your second option.

Why would anyone skip Wooly's deep as fuck insight and analysis, the guy is a national treasure. Its fucked up fanfic disguised as exclusive information the unwashed masses are too ignorant to consume on their own. (lol)

So he isnt just a guy selling you ideas, he is force feeding them down your fucking throat. And we plebs are JUS2FUCCENBASIC and cant possibly understand!

Yeah but guys... who IS Jon's father?!?!?!

I haven't read alot of Wildcards, but I have read most of GRRM's other stuff - his short stories, the Haviland Tuf stories, Fevre Dream. It is all excellent and worth reading. It also hammers home the fact that GRRM is a scifi writer first and foremost, and I think that the success of ASoIaF surprised him and he honestly just wants it to be over, hehe.

The extreme north of Westeros is intentionally left very vague, and no official map of the the fictional world shows where the continent ends. This is presumably because nobody can survive that far north, to chart a map, but also lends a lot of credence to the theory that White Walkers have been around for ten thousand years in that uncharted territory, minding their own business.

Also, the first clue we get that the Bloodraven is a piece of shit is when Bran falls from the tower. The crow is what lured Bran up the tower, causing him to be pushed off. He immediately starts having dreams of flying instead of being a wolf, and to him that seems strange. Bloodraven will probably turn out to be R'hllor who is the only "God" that has shown any power. The position of the 3-Eyed Raven gives a person the ability to change the past and present, but also to see the future.Bloodraven molded the world, knowing how events would unfold into the future, by introducing prophecies, dreams, and subtly manipulating people.

It's likely this whole thing ends with a renewed piece with the Whitewalkers via Bran, or something along those lines. I mean now that we know that Bloodraven and Bran can alter the past (to a small extent), it adds all sorts of fucking possibilities that you really can't take reliable guesses at. Hell, humanity could be wiped out in Westeros, with the CotF re-emerging from their long forgotten burrows. We'll just have to wait and see what Bran does with his powers, but he's the real character to watch. Everything we've seen so far is set in stone, meaning it can't be changed. If someone "saw" Bran, it'd be represented in the show... but someone says that may just have happened here:
Does this scene prove Bran time-traveled back to Ned Stark


I'm only saying that Bloodraven is probably the true puppetmaster who has set the story in motion (i.e. Littlefinger with god-like powers), and the White Walkers are no less evil than humans, perhaps even less so.

There's a reason we know so much about Bloodraven's previous life before him becoming the 3ER. We know more about him, and his personality, than any other character in the series. Why give us so much information? And why are D&D lying by saying that the White Walkers don't communicate, speak, or do anything because they represent death and nothing more? That's clearly untrue based on their relationship with Craster and the probability that the first Long Night ended with a truce rather than their extinction. Craster killed his children, the White Walkers did not.

They are clearly very intelligent and care about their own survival as they only attack themselves when:
* assassinating Waymare Royce (which the books describe as looking almost exactly like Jon Snow)
* attacking Sam who has the Horn Of Winter
* attacking rangers at FotM where Jon Snow is.
* attacking Hardhome at the exact time Jon Snow arrives, again. A Whitewalker itself attacks Jon. Why him? There were like 20,000 people there.
* attacking the cave of Bloodraven with Bran inside.

Why do they only come in force at certain times? Mance said they'd "stalk" his camp and pick off stragglers, but they never attacked his army, when they could have wiped him them out due to wildlings not havinganyweapons which could kill them. They'd have 100,000 more wights now.

Why do they only really seem to launch a massive attack/ambush in these five instances? Why were the wildlings largely left alone for nearly twenty years? GRRM is a careful writer, he hasn't added random shit to this story just to produce dramatic tension. There has to be a common link between the five.

They clearly wanted Sam's horn (another clue that it will bring down the wall), and they really, really, really want Jon Snow (Jon Snow look-a-likes) & Bran (or someone else inside the 3-ER's cave - Bloodraven, Leaf, or even Meera) dead. That much is obvious.

Jon was not in Hardhome in the books... He sent Cotter Pyke via ships from Eastwatch.

Btw, I don't think I'm wrong on most the Star Wars stuff, btw. I mean, there's a lot less to go on... but I think it's very likely they are going to throw in quite a few 'twists' into VIII and IX. Snoke being Plagueis just fucking makes a lot more sense than him being some random new character, and I think George Lucas would've wrote that in his original 9. Don't know how much they threw out and how much they're keeping though.

Quaid_sl said:

Jon was not in Hardhome in the books... He sent Cotter Pyke via ships from Eastwatch.

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Good point, but was Hardhome attacked by White Walkers in the books? No, not yet at least. The mission was a failure due to storms and wildlings mistaking Cotter for a slaver.

Cotter reports that some of the wildlings have resorted to cannabilsm out of extreme starvation, that the wildlings attacked one of the Night's Watch ships, and that "dead things" can be seen in the surroundings forests and in the water. Instead of making the journey himself, Jon decides to send Tormund to assist Cotter in his place.
No battles or White Walker armies are ever mentioned. Obviously that is extremely different from the White Walker onslaught we saw in the television show, as Jon, the wildlings and even a giant battled for their lives against a host of supernatural foes upon arriving at the make-shift town. There are a number of small deviations from the books outside of the battle proper as well. For example, it has yet to be 100 percent confirmed in the books that Valyrian steel swords like Jon's Longclaw can kill the Others, though it has been speculated.

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If there's a White Walker massacre at Hardhome in Winds of Winter then obviously things will have to be reconsidered. ADWD covered almost all of S5 though, and still nothing to indicate that it'll happen. Why did they film that episode, when it was obviously a very expensive episode budget wise due to all the actors and CGI? D&D know the story, the rules, and some deviation of the ending, and I think they made major changes from the book in this instance. I think a few clues can be gleamed from it.

Miguex_sl said:

He did the same shit in the Star Wars thread. No presence at all until he chowed down on tons of reddit, then suddenly a few weeks of explosive diarrhea.He'll burn out here shortly.

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Self-defeating prophecy.

Incredible, not only is Wooly predicting the future of ASoIaF, he himself is now causing ripple effects in this very thread!

White Walkers have a spoken language, called Skroth; wights do not speak, as far as we know.

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Does not jibe with...

WEISS: I don't think of the Night King as a villain as much as, Death. He is not like Joffrey, or Ramses. He's not really human anymore. To me, evil comes when you have a choice between that and good, and you choose the wrong way. The Night King doesn't have a choice; he was created that way, and that's what he is. In some ways, he's just death, coming for everyone in the story, coming for all of us. In some ways, it's appropriate he doesn't speak. What's death going to say? Anything would diminish him. He's just a force of destruction. I don't think we've ever been tempted to write dialogue for the Night King. Anything he said would be anticlimactic.

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Jozu_sl said:

Self-defeating prophecy.

Incredible, not only is Wooly predicting the future of ASoIaF, he himself is now causing ripple effects in this very thread!

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People have been doing so for twenty years. There's just a lot more content and consistency with this work. GRRM thought the entire thing through to the end before he began the first book, unlike other writers who just make shit up as they go. I've yet to find a plot hole in this story, and I can usually spot them a mile away in every book or film I watch.

All from 1993, so obviously there have been major changes including changing this from a trilogy to what, 8 books?

Sansa will chose her husband and heir over her parents and siblings.

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Now take a look at the position she's in now, loyalty to her brother or power? Combined with her characteristics being more Tully than Stark, and her Direwolf being the first to die, it seems probably, if not likely, that Sansa turns against Jon in S7.



Tyrion does end up siding against his family, but in the OD he sides with the Starks.

Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Daenaerys, and Jon are the five most important characters in the original draft.

None of the "major" players in the original draft have died in either the story or the books.Now Arya probably has been re-written the most, but I suspect that she's more important than we think. We've followed her across the Seven Kingdoms, Essos, and back.

We're left with the Jon/Dany (both Targs), Tyrion (who a lot of people speculate as being a Targ, idk), Arya (a love interest), and Bran (who wields magic).



I don't know how many conclusions you can really infer from any of this because of how old it is, but just posting for anyone who hasn't seen the redacted text, but I do find it pretty odd that we've yet to see any of the major characters in the OD get killed.

All this motivation people are ascribing to The Others feels like a bit much. I mean, there's obviously some human sacrifice that keeps them at bay in the North, but aside from that the books explicitly state that their movements are tied to sunlight. That's why they were able to range so far south during the Long Night, and that's why they'll be such a threat during an abnormally long/intense winter.

Im really not buying into the idea that ASOIAF is just a verbose version of Frankenstein with a fantasy wrapping. There's just not enough information available to draw that conclusion, especially since we've learned that the COTF created The Others as a weapon. 'THE MONSTER CAN ACTUALLY BE REASONED WITH/WHO IS REALLY THE MONSTER??!!?' is a pretty derivative lame-ass theme for what is supposed to be GRRM's life work.

Quaid_sl said:

All this motivation people are ascribing to The Others feels like a bit much. I mean, there's obviously some human sacrifice that keeps them at bay in the North, but aside from that the books explicitly state that their movements are tied to sunlight. That's why they were able to range so far south during the Long Night, and that's why they'll be such a threat during an abnormally long/intense winter.

Im really not buying into the idea that ASOIAF is just a verbose version of Frankenstein with a fantasy wrapping. There's just not enough information available to draw that conclusion, especially since we've learned that the COTF created The Others as a weapon. 'THE MONSTER CAN ACTUALLY BE REASONED WITH/WHO IS REALLY THE MONSTER??!!?' is a pretty derivative lame-ass theme for what is supposed to be GRRM's life work.

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For traditional High Fantasy it's not derivative at all. Take a look at MMO's based on High Fantasy. They take a world, populate it with a bunch of mindlessly evil NPC-villains that "automatically want to attack" and it's just so fucking retarded when you stop to think about it.

Nothing in the real world is openly hostile and malevolent except people. Sharks attack people because they're starving and in a frenzy, or because they mistakenly identify them as prey (seals). Nothing on this planet kills for sport, except for us. Dolphins, and whales, which in very recent scientific work have been found to have remarkable intelligence don't fucking murder one another.

My dad related a story about how a dolphin got caught up in his shrimping nets and died. When they threw it overboard, one member of the dolphin pod picked up the carcass and carried it out of the water on it's nose for hours whilst following the boat, and he heard a lot of "shrieking/wailing noise" which he interpreted as crying because he had never heard them before even though he spent decades out in the Gulf.

We're supposedly intelligent but look at some of our baser instincts and characteristics. Tribalism still exists, except it's Nationalism. Humanity has more in common with a virus than anything other mammal. We're in a constant struggle to compete for consumption, and even the richest people in the world want more. Why isn't 20 million USD enough, when it's more than almost any human being could or would ever need? Why is Donald Trump running for President now that he's got billions, yet refuses to spend much on his own campaign?

There was a really good article about the people in Sardinia, which has the highest % of people who live to be over 100 years old, in the world. I don't think this is it, but it's similar enough:
Log In - The New York Times

They get up late, do a few hours of work, drink modestly all day, and go in town on weekends to socialize. They don't really care about wealth, power, or the newest smartphones.

We're on a precipice. We either need to make some major fundamental changes, or there's not really much hope for our future. Any intelligent person would place the odds of civilization existing at the current state, or improving, over the next couple generations at less than 5-10%. I think Smallpox brought down the Roman Empire, out of which the super decentralized feudalistic society rose. Other plagues other empires, Plague of Athens destroyed Greece, Smallpox the Aztecs, Persians, and Chinese, etc. Civilization today seems to be a house-of-cards, ready to collapse by the first real crisis, more so than the decentralized Roman government was. Look at how economic markets reacted to 9/11. How scared we are of the Zika virus and terrorism, when they really aren't the dangers we need to be worried about.

And I don't even want to get started with religion, except to say that while it probably had some positive effects on the development of civilization, it's outdated and a majority of the world's population are living in a fantasy. Not to mention wanting to kill one another.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

The common house cat puts your entire bullshit to the test. They kill for sport.

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Yeah, so do dolphins and chimpanzees now that I looked it up. It seems that there may be some correlation that behavior and intelligence, or maybe not. I concede that part.

It's just odd that in science fiction, you tend to find the "big bads", whether it be Arachnids from Starship Troopers or Buggers from Ender's Game are just acting in self defense or from a misguided notion/mistake, where as in the fantasy genre we're far more likely to just assume that the mindless automatons are evil.

If we actually did encounter a more advanced species in the universe, would they want to help us or destroy us? Something worth thinking about. I mean there's more than enough resources in space to go around... So what would motivate them either way? Would they actually leave or give technology to a species that may pose a threat to them in the future? That line of thinking is based on the assumption that war is inevitable, and it's certainly how we humans approach things especially in regards to one another. But is war really inevitable? Maybe it's the nature of evolution to have the apex species fight it out for dominance.

If China were to weaponize space, it'd start a new arms race as the rest of the world would quickly try to catch up It's the self fulfilling nature of warfare; we always assume we have to be ready for it, causing us to inevitably start or become entangled in war. Is warfare a human construct or that of every intelligent species?

Most importantly, can we as a species every truly overcome it? Certainly, romanticizing warfare doesn't seem to be helpful.

Anyway, I've gotten way off topic and it's time to take a break.

Thanks.