Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

I"d also recommend knowing as much as you can about the game/product that the company makes.

It"s not a requirement but in my experience having knowledge of the game helps you a lot in the interview process. They (QA Management) usually get excited to see someone who will be up and running with a smaller learning curve.

With as important as QA is, if you have little experience on your resume your knowledge of their product will give you a better chance at getting your foot in the door.

I guess thats true of most jobs but QA always seems to get regarded as, "Cool I can play games for a living." and not really taken like a serious job.

I wish I could be young again and be able to afford to work as a slave with slave wages because it could be fun to work on video games.

Gallenite said:

Here"s a hint that might help:

If you have a local game developer/publisher that you have your eye on, assuming you don"t have any personal contacts there, look up their number, give them a call, and ask to speak to someone in HR.

Alternately, if you need a name first, search game credits (e.g. mobygames) for a recent game they"ve made until you find an HR person"s name. Most larger companies list everyone and their dog in the credits.

Ask that person which temp agency they use to staff their QA/CS/other entry-level dept that interests you, then contact the temp agency directly.

Good luck.

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Ahhh where were the FOH boards when I was just graduating with a shiny new CS degree and I wanted to do this for a living.

Maxxius said:

Please oh please hire plenty of coders. I refuse to play another game where you are told that the coding can"t handle change "such and such."

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This has little to do with number of coders, instead it has to do with the senior engineers (architects, tech leads, whatever other titles you want to use) who create the frameworks for the game.

MMOs are very different from other games, when you design Gods of War or Guitar Hero you pretty much know what the game is going to do and can create a underlying framework that is optimized for your game. Whereas in MMOs things can change dramatically and rapidly, and creating a rigid underlying system can hurt horribly later on down the road - for example, Tabula Rasa had to scrap years of work (combat engine issues I believe?) and essentially restart.

MMO engines tend to become messier and messier, as you try to kludge on things that were never thought about when you first started working on it. You can get a pretty good idea of how well the internal engineering processes work at a game (or any) company by their patches - WoW, when it first was released, had tremendous bugs every patch and always seemed to be 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Now of course they are much better. LOTRo has always seemed to have good patch releases. Funcom is, well, in a class by itself (lol).

This is primarily why its so important for MMO companies to hire outstanding netcode, graphics engine, patching engine, and combat engine senior engineers when they start (and i"m forgetting some), since the frameworks they design have such a massive impact on every thread of the game throughout its lifetime.

Gallenite said:

Please only assume that Scott continues to read these boards and still enjoys offering random tips to people where he can.

While I was at SOE, I"d have (generally) PMed the answer. I"ve done that a dozen or so times with other industry-type questions, instead of posting in non-EQ2 threads.

But, since I"m no longer employed by "the competition," I don"t mind posting in any thread that I damn well feel like.

(And I suspect that Curt wouldn"t have minded either way.)

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G-man needs a new sig IMO! Spill the beans Scotty or I"ll send ninjas.

Gallenite said:

Here"s a hint that might help:

If you have a local game developer/publisher that you have your eye on, assuming you don"t have any personal contacts there, look up their number, give them a call, and ask to speak to someone in HR.

Alternately, if you need a name first, search game credits (e.g. mobygames) for a recent game they"ve made until you find an HR person"s name. Most larger companies list everyone and their dog in the credits.

Ask that person which temp agency they use to staff their QA/CS/other entry-level dept that interests you, then contact the temp agency directly.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip man. I"ll be sure to look into that once I get back to the States.

Ngruk said:

Great testers are as hard to find as any other person in this industry from what I have learned. People that run these departments have lines into people that are great at this stuff and lean on them heavily.

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Gallenite said:

Ask that person which temp agency they use to staff their QA/CS/other entry-level dept that interests you, then contact the temp agency directly.

Click to expand...

No offense to either of you, but right here is why Blizzard will continue to rule the roost.

If someone says QA, people assume testing and see it as entry level.

I despair, honestly.



QA needs a seat at the head table. The guy who owns responsibility for QA (and you need someone, you can"t leave it to individuals) should be able to kick the ass of anyone in the project, when it comes to their area of responsibility. That includes documentation, project schedules, communication, process management and project scheduling.

It gives the framework for the project to flourish and succeed. It sets your people free to do their best work.

You are on the right track if your QA guy is on the back of your senior managers, kicking their ass. If he is chasing round their workforce, you"re getting it wrong.

I"ve owned $25mill plus IT projects; I"m not talking theory.

Flight said:

No offense to either of you, but right here is why Blizzard will continue to rule the roost.

If someone says QA, people assume testing and see it as entry level.

I despair, honestly.



QA needs a seat at the head table. The guy who owns responsibility for QA (and you need someone, you can"t leave it to individuals) should be able to kick the ass of anyone in the project, when it comes to their area of responsibility. That includes documentation, project schedules, communication, process management and project scheduling.

It gives the framework for the project to flourish and succeed. It sets your people free to do their best work.

You are on the right track if your QA guy is on the back of your senior managers, kicking their ass. If he is chasing round their workforce, you"re getting it wrong.

I"ve owned $25mill plus IT projects; I"m not talking theory.

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I agree 100%. QA should not be a "necessary evil" that is left to temps and part timers who really have no vested interest in the overall game. They are there to pick up a paycheck and maybe get to play a cool game while they do it.

You need to have someone with some authority running QA and rattling cages and kicking ass. The powers that be need to listen to this person and follow their advice or you can kiss "polish" goodbye.

Flight said:

No offense to either of you, but right here is why Blizzard will continue to rule the roost.

If someone says QA, people assume testing and see it as entry level.

I despair, honestly.



QA needs a seat at the head table. The guy who owns responsibility for QA (and you need someone, you can"t leave it to individuals) should be able to kick the ass of anyone in the project, when it comes to their area of responsibility. That includes documentation, project schedules, communication, process management and project scheduling.

It gives the framework for the project to flourish and succeed. It sets your people free to do their best work.

You are on the right track if your QA guy is on the back of your senior managers, kicking their ass. If he is chasing round their workforce, you"re getting it wrong.

I"ve owned $25mill plus IT projects; I"m not talking theory.

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Quoted for motherfuckin TRUTH right here.

I am kinda biased...I"ve done pro-level Q/A for a couple of years and been in the IT field for longer than I care to admit. QA without power means jack and shit...usually very easily seen in the released product too.

Flight said:

No offense to either of you, but right here is why Blizzard will continue to rule the roost.

If someone says QA, people assume testing and see it as entry level.

I despair, honestly.



QA needs a seat at the head table. The guy who owns responsibility for QA (and you need someone, you can"t leave it to individuals) should be able to kick the ass of anyone in the project, when it comes to their area of responsibility. That includes documentation, project schedules, communication, process management and project scheduling.

It gives the framework for the project to flourish and succeed. It sets your people free to do their best work.

You are on the right track if your QA guy is on the back of your senior managers, kicking their ass. If he is chasing round their workforce, you"re getting it wrong.

I"ve owned $25mill plus IT projects; I"m not talking theory.

Click to expand...

You"re reading far too much into what I said. The "QA Guy" that you refer to actually does exist at most game companies.

There are generally a large number of full time, highly experienced leads, managers, directors, technology specialists, and analysts who do exactly what you describe.

One "QA Guy" like that, in fact, would be woefully insufficient for any 7 or 8 figure project.

There are also entry-level positions, which many companies contract through temp agencies for accounting purposes.

The question that was being asked was how to get in at the entry-level.

You don"t jump straight from college graduate with no experience to that gentleman "at the head of the table."

In a world where people"s parent companies frequently make them go through temp agencies for accounting purposes, which is the insider-trick that I was attempting to share, this is one way to begin that journey.

Hope that helps,

- Scott

spronk said:

This has little to do with number of coders, instead it has to do with the senior engineers (architects, tech leads, whatever other titles you want to use) who create the frameworks for the game.

- for example, Tabula Rasa had to scrap years of work (combat engine issues I believe?) and essentially restart.

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Very true. Good code design is important. I"ve seen places that have brilliant software architects that don"t get games at all. There you have problems. Then I"ve seen coders that do get games and have no software design skills. It"s really hard to find both, and often the people doing the hiring are looking for one or the other and not both.

TR"s combat was great in V 0.5 or whatever you want to call it. The engine was more of the issue. Well that and the whole genre change.

The old engine severely crapped out when tasked with something akin to the modern TR battlefield. The tests were not pretty.

Not to dis the old engine though, it was great for what it was designed for: highly interactive single group instances.

Just taking a wild stab here, but based on the content I see, I think Turbine has the best tools out there.

Is the only way to start in the business from the ground up? Do regular IT developers, architects, etc. change industry to the gaming industry? For example, I would imagine that a MMO would require the services of a Oracle architectual DBA in the same way as a financial application like SAP. Do many technical people working for SOE or 38 Studios come from other non-gaming applications?

Another example would be for reporting or decision support. I imagine that these MMOs require many different reports or data mining to determine certain characteristics about the gameplay or Players in order to improve the game.

There"s a definite path to junior designer from the outside, that path being to just make something. Fire up nwn and build the most amazing mod ever. Show some good solid writing, scripted events, dialogue based on conditions or statistics, good enemy behaviors and placements. Mess with the AI etc... Just show you can finish something.

Flight said:

No offense to either of you, but right here is why Blizzard will continue to rule the roost.

If someone says QA, people assume testing and see it as entry level.

I despair, honestly.



QA needs a seat at the head table. The guy who owns responsibility for QA (and you need someone, you can"t leave it to individuals) should be able to kick the ass of anyone in the project, when it comes to their area of responsibility. That includes documentation, project schedules, communication, process management and project scheduling.

It gives the framework for the project to flourish and succeed. It sets your people free to do their best work.

You are on the right track if your QA guy is on the back of your senior managers, kicking their ass. If he is chasing round their workforce, you"re getting it wrong.

I"ve owned $25mill plus IT projects; I"m not talking theory.

Click to expand...

You should probably relax a bit. I am sure people getting millions to make an MMO are fully aware of the importance for QA/Testing etc etc. There is probably not 1 QA GUY on the back of the senior managers.... rather more like a bank of data, feedback, and information by a TEAM of QA.

Sigil does not count obviously.

Gallenite said:

Good stuff on QA

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I appreciate and agree 100% with what you say, Scott. I"m not communicating brilliantly here. Let me try a different tack.

I used to work for IBM; I was an IT Architect and Project Manager in the Public Service Business (runs all IBMs Government projects). I went to run a project at a merchant bank in London, for, what was, Dresdner Kleinwort Benson. They offered me 6 times my salary to stay on and work for them.

It opened my eyes to a different world, within the IT industry. A whole new level of competence and ability existed, which I wasn"t previously aware could exist. It was all enabled by an attitude and approach which was focused around the QA "guy". Of course he has a team, including testers, but testing is by no means the most important part of QA.

The most important parts of QA include enforcing proper procedures, process management, keeping on top of schedules, project plans, communication and documentation. The "guy" should be a part of the senior management team and ensure all these things are being complied with by the other senior management. He needs to know all these things inside out.


Sony have used exactly the same QA staff, with the same people at their head, for every game since about 2001. Some years they have pushed out 8 (!!!) new games or expansions, with the same QA staff responsible for all of them. They have got it woefully wrong. Masses of skilled development is being wasted through poor middle and senior management.

I"ll take this to a new post for the sake of brevity and readability.

At this point, I want to differentiate between 38 Studios and their competition.

I have very strong beliefs about how to revolutionise the MMO industry, through the processes I"m talking about. At this point I want to underline it doesn"t apply to 38 Studios - they are most of the way there, which is why I have been so excited about them since their inception.

Since their inception, the most exciting thing about 38 Studios to me is their ethos - excellence, mutual respect, taking care of their employees. 38 Studios is like the "anti-thesis" of the typical game developer.



So, how would a typical, existing company "get it" ? I"ll finish off the personal example, to make my point.


I was working in London, Frankfurt, Madrid and Moscow, based in London, for the aforementioned merchant bank. My dad got very ill, so I took a job in Liverpool, my home town. The experience and skill set I took with me didn"t exist outside of London (within the UK).

The job was with Royal Liver Assurance. I was Senior Project Manager and Head of IS. They had a legacy network, spanning the Liver Buildings (very famous building here in the UK), and dozens of regional offices in the UK and Ireland, which was a right mess. The IT department was very poorly skilled. I was to design and implement a brand new "bleeding edge" network, together with a standardised desktop for the entire company, where none had previously existed. On top of this a mission critical project was part of the contract, which involved designing and implementing a call centre, equipped with complex applications that they had never had before.

I was expected to come in, sack pretty much everyone and recruit a whole new department. Instead of doing that, I recruited a small number of friends and others, who were highly skilled and spent the next 18 months not only delivering all my key objectives (on time and in budget ) but. more importantly, passing on skill sets and ways of doing things, to the permanent staff.

It worked and I believe it would work in the MMO industry. Particularly in the QA field, we are envisioning. The fact is the skill set I envision does not exist in the industry, presently.

I"m Rich Bitch said:

Is the only way to start in the business from the ground up? Do regular IT developers, architects, etc. change industry to the gaming industry? For example, I would imagine that a MMO would require the services of a Oracle architectual DBA in the same way as a financial application like SAP. Do many technical people working for SOE or 38 Studios come from other non-gaming applications?

Another example would be for reporting or decision support. I imagine that these MMOs require many different reports or data mining to determine certain characteristics about the gameplay or Players in order to improve the game.

Click to expand...

This is a core issue to me. It makes no sense that recruitment is so incestuous, in an industry that is so short staffed. Get those skilled folks in, from outside the industry, integrate them and teach them - and learn form them.

The industry is stagnant in terms of deliverables, because of the recruitment processes and job development schemes. Come in as a CS, be a GM for 6 months, promote to QA.

A final analogy, to summarise my belief in how a very small number of people could totally revolutionise the MMO industry.

I"m going to look at the Manufacturing industry. I have a University Degree in IT and Project Management and HNDs in Electronic Engineering and another in Management and have worked in both industries - trust me the analogy is sound.


50 years ago a small number of Westerners had some theories about applying statistical analysis to the manufacturing industry. The entire Western world rejected them - saw them as unnecessary and/or unworkable.

Japan invited one of these chaps over to talk about his theories. They immediately embraced them. These small theories revolutionised the Japanese manufacturing industry. This was the birth of Quality Management and Quality Assurance.

This was entirely responsible for the rise of the Japanese manufacturing industry; the rejection of it was entirely responsible for the decline of the Western manufacturing industry.

The mans name was Dr Deming. He is still a hero throughout Japan. The biggest companies have two portraits in their lobbies - one of their founder and one of Dr Deming.


The MMO industry is in the state Western manufacturing was 50 years ago. The opportunity is knocking at the door. Blizzard embraced these philosophies and thats why they are a giant.

Testing is great and an important function. But QA, pushing proper processes and documentation, will mean much more "getting it right first time". Testing will become more about signing off than throwing out huge numbers of errors.

It will cost to implement, both financially and in terms of the mind set of the work force, but the rewards are immeasurable. Games delivered on time, to spec and within budget, that are what was envisaged. Reliable, resilient and scalable, for future expansions.

Flight said:

At this point, I want to differentiate between 38 Studios and their competition.

I have very strong beliefs about how to revolutionise the MMO industry, through the processes I"m talking about. At this point I want to underline it doesn"t apply to 38 Studios - they are most of the way there, which is why I have been so excited about them since their inception.

Since their inception, the most exciting thing about 38 Studios to me is their ethos - excellence, mutual respect, taking care of their employees. 38 Studios is like the "anti-thesis" of the typical game developer.

Click to expand...

I"m not knocking 38 Studios here - believe me when I say I want them to succeed (I want a good game to play dammit) - but until we have something to sink our teeth in to, I"ve heard it all before (Sigil). I"m not alone in giving no developer any of my trust, and I guess I don"t understand why you are.

Otherwise, your points for the most part seem valid and it"s possible 38 Studios is going in the right direction with QA. If not, well, 2 Vanguards will hopefully have twice the impact on the industry as one did.