Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Grave_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Ukerric said:
There"s no cool wild west MMO. None, nada, zilch. The potential of a cool wild west MMO is completely unknown. It might bring 50k new players to MMO, it might bring 10 millions, no one knows.

We don"t have to know for sure. It"s easy to look at your potential audience and see what type of game they would most be drawn to. In this case the audience is simply gamers. I don"t think 38S is trying to pull in another 10 million people that have never played an MMO before. That would be an unrealistic goal. They are making a game for people who enjoy playing them. In that demographic, fantasy is the clear winner. You can see it easily, not only in the MMO market, but everywhere; gamers tend to be drawn to fantasy. You could say we don"t know the potential of a jungle safari MMO if you wanted to, and sure you"d be right, but it"s easy to see why it"s safer to choose a tried and true setting.

Ukerric said:
So, you have to make a game that"s extremely different from WoW - even if it"s fantasy.

I know I"m repeating myself here, but I don"t think the new game has to be that different from WoW as far as mechanics and gameplay is concerned in order to get players. Sometimes people want something new, or a slightly different setting. Simple as that. It could be a near carbon copy of WoW and I guarantee you a TON of people would try it anyway, and possibly stick with it, just for a change. Of course, we know they will do more than simply copy WoW, which is good. As I"ve said before I would kill for a game that had the quality of WoW, but with a better world, lore, and race/class combos.

They do have a chance to make some good changes to differentiate themselves from WoW, such as offering more interesting and less linear dungeons (just take a look at the Favorite Zone thread, people miss that).

If they went with an EQ style setting, and really kicked ass, they would easily have most of the EQ1, EQ2, VG players, as well as some carry over from LOTRO and WoW just because people want to see what the new guy is like. Just looking at that alone you can understand why they want to choose fantasy, the people are already there playing, waiting on something better to come along.

Draegan_sl · Apr 23, 2008

Ukerric said:
That"s a lesson you get from WoW. Transparency helps. The ones who lose by being transparent are the ones who have already lost - in this 21st century"s industry, if you have to sweep your problems under a rug, you will fail.

I disagree. If I was running a company I wouldn"t offer any transparency at all. Show the public what they need to know, keep them updated with scheduled production. You"re asking for nothing but trouble when you invite the public into you daily grind. We have no financial stake in the company, we don"t deserve to know what they"re doing as far as developing their project.

James · Apr 23, 2008

Ukerric said:
That"s a lesson you get from WoW. Transparency helps. The ones who lose by being transparent are the ones who have already lost - in this 21st century"s industry, if you have to sweep your problems under a rug, you will fail.

It"s funny that you mention WoW/Blizzard as a "transparent" company. Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, they"re not the Iron fucking Curtain that Verant/Sony was (honestly, keep what RAW STATS do hidden from your gaming populace? How could that be a bad idea, I DON"T KNOW!), but to say that they aretransparentis a downright lie.

Gaereth_foh · Apr 23, 2008

In this market space they are like glass compared to others. The non-nda beta, the open beta, test server hosting the newest raid zones.

You may not be able to get behind and into the non-game stuff very well but when it comes to their MMO they have been the most transparent company to date.

Rayne_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Grave said:
They do have a chance to make some good changes to differentiate themselves from WoW, such as offering more interesting and less linear dungeons (just take a look at the Favorite Zone thread, people miss that).

You can"t be serious. Sure, some people may miss those things, but to insinuate that the majority of an entire genre would want them repeated is assinine. They"re nothing more than individual preference (some of my own admittedly). And many, if not most, of which are NOT widely shared, regardless of what you may believe. Its pretty widely accepted that WoW did an excellent job of providing a SHITTON of things in a manner that a majority of individual players prefer.

If they went with an EQ style setting, and really kicked ass, they would easily have most of the EQ1, EQ2, VG players, as well as some carry over from LOTRO and WoW just because people want to see what the new guy is like. Just looking at that alone you can understand why they want to choose fantasy, the people are already there playing, waiting on something better to come along.

I"d venture to say that a good number of those same people are likely waiting on WotLK. And when this game new game launches, they"ll likely be waiting on another WoW expansion. If not a StarCraft or Diablo mmo launch or expansion. Thats only assuming that seasoned WoW players will be willing to either pay for both this new fantasy game and WoW, or completely detach themselves and drop WoW for it. Just look at the shift in reaction to "success" recently. 250k subs? pfft.... 500k? piddly..... You think investors don"t think the same way? Another WoW calibre fantasy mmo isn"t going to "grow" the market space. It will only "divide" it, with each game getting a piece of whats available. Ukerric really summed it up best I think:

That"s the difference: if people want a quality fantasy MMO now, they have one. Most people who would be interested in a fantasy MMO now are probably playing it.

I"d only add that maybe, at best, there"d be a slight "changing of the guard" so to speak, as gamers exit and enter the genre. Which is MUCH less likely if every choice for a high quality experience available is "fantasy exclusive". Personally, I think Blizzard is going to resolve that issue themselves if they do actually launch StarCraft and Diablo mmos. And if they fix those three games into a "station pass" type deal, breaking into the high-end of the mmo market will truly become a near impossible task. Who the hell is gonna pay for 2 individual fantasy mmos, when they can play WarCraft, StarCraft, and Diablo mmos for a better rate? Bet that wild west mmo isn"t looking like such a risky idea now, eh?

Fog_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Gaereth said:
In this market space they are like glass compared to others. The non-nda beta, the open beta, test server hosting the newest raid zones.

You may not be able to get behind and into the non-game stuff very well but when it comes to their MMO they have been the most transparent company to date.

Is this really true? Every recent MMORPG (past two years?) I"ve looked at has had a closed beta, then an open beta you can sign up for, then an open beta weekend everyone can play, then another one.

I don"t know about test servers, but I know EQ2 has one, Eve has one. Although I suspect that a lot of people would prefer the test servernothost the latest raid content if they were able instead to test that content themselves internally.

During my tenure playing WoW, Blizzard never struck me as a company that was exceptionally open or good at communicating. Maybe that"s changed since I quit. Not that I"m complaining - I think a good game speaks for itself.

Twobit_sl · Apr 23, 2008

I think when people say that they refer to the months and months of beta that had no NDA.

Most games keep the NDA in place until the true "open beta" that is nothing more than a trial 2 weeks before launch.

Grave_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Rayne said:
You can"t be serious. Sure, some people may miss those things, but to insinuate that the majority of an entire genre would want them repeated is assinine. They"re nothing more than individual preference (some of my own admittedly). And many, if not most, of which are NOT widely shared, regardless of what you may believe. Its pretty widely accepted that WoW did an excellent job of providing a SHITTON of things in a manner that a majority of individual players prefer.

But weren"t we just saying that they needed to do some things that differentiate themselves from WoW? I agree non-instanced non-linear dungeons do not have total mass appeal, but does that mean they should be totally abolished from every MMO henceforth? I think not.

There"s absolutely no reason the game couldn"t have both types of dungeons like EQ2 does. A large, well designed non-instanced area to romp around in and an instance with the same theme where quest related events take place. This allows you to build community, something that WoW lacks greatly, but also provide the tailored and heavily scripted experience of instances. Why not have the best of both worlds?

Rayne_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Grave said:
But weren"t we just saying that they needed to do some things that differentiate themselves from WoW? I agree non-instanced non-linear dungeons do not have total mass appeal, but does that mean they should be totally abolished from every MMO henceforth? I think not.

There"s absolutely no reason the game couldn"t have both types of dungeons like EQ2 does. A large, well designed non-instanced area to romp around in and an instance with the same theme where quest related events take place. This allows you to build community, something that WoW lacks greatly, but also provide the tailored and heavily scripted experience of instances. Why not have the best of both worlds?

You realise you just described WoW without as many progression based open-world bosses right? Add some in the next expansion, and voila! Your vision just got smoked. Its gonna take a lot more than that.

Valderen · Apr 23, 2008

I think there is room for more fantasy mmo, the thing is WoW raised the bar on the quality level of MMO in general. It actually in many ways raise the quality to the same standard most single player game are held to...

Done are the days of the Brad MacQuaid that a MMO is never done, that it"s always a work in progress, that it can never be balanced(not saying WoW is btw), that there will always be bugs in a game that big etc...

The truth of the matter is WoW was basically as polished as any single player game is...which has never been the case for MMO before...and since. It wasn"t perfect at release, and still isn"t but it is league ahead of anything mmo out there.

So until we see another fantasy MMO be as polished...we can"t know if there is room for more or not...because right now most MMO fails simply by the fact that they are all released way before they are ready.

I play WoW, and I do enjoy it, but I really am waiting for another fantasy mmo to come along and take me from WoW.

Why? There"s a few reason, but mostly, while I think WoW has great artistic direction...it"s definitly not my favorite. I prefer a more realistic approach to the cartoony look of WoW. Someone could for all intent and purpose clone WoW and redo the graphics to be more realistic and I would leave WoW right away.

Another reason, well I also somewhat dislike the setting. I am more of a pure high fantasy lover, the technology in WoW while cute, and fun...annoys me somewhat. Seeing guns, planes, helicopter and mechanical mounts is not something I like.

Also, I dislike all the real world reference in WoW...I laughed when I saw Chief Engineer Scooty, talking about the away team and stuff like that...but again I"d prefer a more serious setting.

So clone WoW, make it more realistic, stick to high fantasy, and make it serious and remove real world reference...and I am there in a heartbeat...and I have some friends that would follow. How many people would...I have no clue, but I am sure there are plenty to make a financially successful MMO.

There is still tons more that could be done to take me away...beside the cosmetic change I mentioned...I miss EQ2 housing and guild features. Heck, just make a WoW clone in everyway and release content faster and I"d switch game based on that alone.

Saying that there is one good fantasy MMO and noone is looking for another is naive. WoW is good, but it"s not that good, not good enough to satisfy every fantasy lover...the fact that there are games like EQ1, EQ2, LoTR and many more mmo still out there with subscibers shows that people want different fantasy MMO...and most of those are not even close to being as polished as WoW...yet people still play them.

So go ahead Curt, make another fantasy MMO...there"s a few of us out there looking for something other then WoW for our fantasy mmo fix.

Grave_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Rayne said:
You realise you just described WoW without as many progression based open-world bosses right? Add some in the next expansion, and voila! Your vision just got smoked. Its gonna take a lot more than that.

Of course it will take more than that, I was simply defending my point that non-instanced dungeons have their place. And WoW will always be able to add things that 38S does, there"s no avoiding it, so why even bring that up as a negative? 38S has the advantage right now if anything, because they can look at everything WoW has done and try to do it better.

And to further address the issue of the mainstream mmogamer not liking non-instanced dungeons: imagine you"ve just dinged 25 in WoW and you decide to head into Ashenvale to quest and kill. Now change Ashenvale to an underground labyrinth full of crazed albino vampire elves, with a few camps of gnomes braving the area anyway for precious gems. Guess what? It"s thesame fucking thingas Ashenvale, but it"s a DUNGEON. Oh my. I don"t think the WoW kiddies are going to run away from it in fear.

Ukerric_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Grave said:
I know I"m repeating myself here, but I don"t think the new game has to be that different from WoW as far as mechanics and gameplay is concerned in order to get players.

But that"s the point.

If - and that"s the stated goal - you want to go head against WoW, and want to draw 10 million subscribers, then you do have to offer them something they cannot find in WoW. Because, if they find it in WoW, then they are going to be playing WoW when you launch.

Differentiation. Or, to take industry jargon: USP. Unique Selling Point. The thing that make your game different from every other, and make people want to play your game instead of the myriad of others on the market.

It could be a near carbon copy of WoW and I guarantee you a TON of people would try it anyway, and possibly stick with it, just for a change.

A lot less than you think. I think. You think. I... sod off..

You might persuade people to try your game and offer a carbon copy of WoW. But with the same type, similar IP (let"s see, green orcs, elves, and so on), and all that? If those people stopped playing WoW, there"s a good reason - and that reason will apply to your game as well. They"ll play for three months, and leave.

That"s another thing that make a difference between MMOs and classic games. In subscription-based MMOs, you need to retain players. Not just attract them, which is easy, but retain. No, I think Curt knows very well that offering a WoW clone is probably not going to work, or at least not to the degree he aims for. That"s the big difference. In classic games, pushing a copy of game X is viable. People that played game X and enjoyed it are going to try your game, and thus buy, and you"ve won all the dollars your needed from them.

Now, the point that we made lately in this thread is that a WoW clone could work in a different form. A Fallout WoW-clone? Huge potential, because that kind of game can draw people that could have played WoW, but were simply uninterested in orcs and dwarves and those silly stuff. How huge? Nobody really knows.

Grave_foh · Apr 23, 2008

I totally agree that they have to offersomethingdifferent, which is what I was saying regarding dungeons, and there are various other things they could change.

The only point I was trying to make in the above quotes is that they don"t have to go to the complete other end of the spectrum as Rayne seemed to be suggesting to have a chance at competing. I think it is smarter to entice people by offering something similar, but better or more to their taste.

You don"t want to be SO different that you end up alienating a large potential audience. WoW obviously has a successful formula, so it makes sense to take that and improve upon or tweak it a bit. Again, too many people are assuming Blizzard will always be the best at everything, and we simply don"t know that. In fact, many players might argue that they have made a large amount of mistakes already over the years since WoW"s release.

Citten_foh · Apr 23, 2008

James said:
It"s funny that you mention WoW/Blizzard as a "transparent" company. Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, they"re not the Iron fucking Curtain that Verant/Sony was (honestly, keep what RAW STATS do hidden from your gaming populace? How could that be a bad idea, I DON"T KNOW!), but to say that they aretransparentis a downright lie.

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Pretty much as transparent as it gets really. They aren"t close to release. The devs talk with the players about every single thing, then scrap it, reintroduce, ask feedback, forum posts, total interaction. Would be hard to be more open/transparent. So maybe just saying WoW would be right.

torrent495_foh · Apr 23, 2008

You can"t topple WoW with a WoW-clone, regardless of whether it"s "improved" or "tweaked" or whatever. Flat-out impossible. No market dominating product in the history of the world has ever been toppled in that way. What you need to do is not offer a "WoW plus," but figure out what people wantbut are not gettingfrom the current games on the market, and then build your design from there. WoW itself is a good example of this approach, and in its own way was actually an extremely innovative game. Before WoW nobody knew there was a massive untapped market for casual, user-friendly MMOs out there--in fact a lot of people, i.e. Brad McQuaid, thought the opposite. Blizzard made a huge bet that there was, they executed that design successfully, and the rest is history.

The next WoW-killer is going to have to be similarly innovative, or it won"t be a WoW-killer. Now I don"t know what that market-redefining innovation might be, or I"d be starting my own MMO company. But it should be obvious that "WoW, but better"will not workif you really want to shake up the genre. Something PvP-related is probably promising, but again, who knows?

Gaereth_foh · Apr 23, 2008

You don"t have to build a WOW killer to compete. In fact, I doubt you could kill WOW at this juncture with an MMO that gives free beer and blow jobs.

People keep looking at it from the standpoint that you have to bury WOW, steamroll it, and utterly waste it with uber coolness and subs to compete. You don"t. You just have to provide a well made game that is a viable and fun option. I haven"t seen one of those release in the last 4 years. So WOW rules.

Twobit_sl · Apr 23, 2008

The key is really not to set out to build a WoW-killer. The key is to set out to make a fun yet challenging, deep yet accessible MMO gaming experience. If the game is worth a damn it will get the subs it deserves.

Maxxius_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Twobit Whore said:
The key is really not to set out to build a WoW-killer. The key is to set out to make a fun yet challenging, deep yet accessible MMO gaming experience. If the game is worth a damn it will get the subs it deserves.

Thing is Curt already set that as his goal, to be top-dog. If he just copies WOW with a few tweaks, that just gets me to play some until WOW"s next expansion (tho at Blizzard"s rate that might still work out ok for S38). The game, however, will need more than just cloning, and it needs to be pvp centric with pve as an alternate playing path. Ain"t winning if it does just one or the other or it can wind up being just niche.

Curt did raise a good point about RA and TODD on his team in that they already do have existing followings to draw off of. This was, and I have repeated the point ad nauseum, the biggest draw for WOW, pulling off it"s PC games/battlenet crowd. The only question remains is if their following is large enough to pull it off.

Grave_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Maxxius said:
it needs to be pvp centric with pve as an alternate playing path.

I would argue the opposite. WoW is slowly becoming more and more centered around PVP, and they have stated they want to push into e-sports, and whatever that entails.

It would be better to have a killer PVE game that offers people more single group and solo content than WoW does(and especially something more fun than World of Badgecraft which is what it has become for the casual player) and more raid content. This actually wouldn"t be hard considering they cannibalize their content every expansion and make it obsolete. They will only have so much PVE content at any given time depending on the latest expansion.

I agree the game must have PVP, and Curt has already said it will and it will be a focus, but I disagree that the game should be "PVP centric". Just make it available. 38S actually has a pretty good opportunity to learn from Blizzard"s mistakes and do battlegrounds better than the current model - especially large scale ones like AV.

Maxxius_foh · Apr 23, 2008

Then I submit you become niche if you make it pve centric. Kids want to kill each other. It"s the older crowd that probably prefers the pve path, but as said earlier that isn"t where the growth lies.

Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

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