Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Zehn - Vhex said:

Eh, the biggest problem we"re facing is that it"s not for a lack of ideas the discussion isn"t moving forward, it"s simply the lack of technology. And even that particular discussion route we"ve been down before and it ends with the extinction of the human race. I think it was even covered in a SeaQuest DSV episode.

Short of posting whole design doc"s, what else is there? Don"t you dare fucking romanticize about the "good old days" of these boards Dead. 99% of it was people bitching about what a bug ridden piece of shit EverQuest was and the remaining 1% was Furor bitching about what a bug ridden piece of shit EverQuest was and us being that much more entertained by it.

Maybe when we were young and innocent and all we really wanted for Christmas was a non-shit interface and the ability to maybe solo.

Yes, shit gets regurgitated. If nobody ever repeated anything that had already been said on the internet there"d be only one page with only me taking because I"m fairly certain I"ve said everything that"s possible to ever say. Well, my page and a Harry Potter fanfic page because I won"t go near that shit.

Let"s just be thankful for small favors at least eh? There"s no more "My Jboots feel slower..." threads and there sure as fuck aren"t nearly as many as, "Let"s make up possisble MMO classes! Get this, an elementalist, he would be like a ranger and a mage only with a sword, awesome yeah!" threads as there used to be either.

And thanks to the existence and constant re-bumping of this thread and the uberworlds forum we haven"t seen a "Hi, I"m a mmo developer, post what you think would be awesome in MMO"s!" thread in ages to make me gouge my fucking eyes out as everyone talks about how their favorite feature is a slick UI and fun gameplay. Oh, and some non-mandatory PvP.

So we have two options really, let this thread die the silent death it deserves until Curt pulls some more Brad McQuaid on us with his, "The game is going great, I"m really excited about it, I think you will be too!" posts.

Or we can continue to agree to ignore the fact that this has all happened before...and will happen again.

Besides, I"m sure you"re all -dying- to know what I think the class roles would be and how they would be spread. Eh? EH?!?

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I nearly died laughing at this.

The point of this thread must be to entertain.

Danth said:

On a different, though not wholly unrelated, line of discussion:

In the past I"ve seen a few posters who want to eliminate the healing role and replace it with something else. Good idea--but directed in the wrong place. Instead, move beyond the concept of "DPS" as a class role. In a class-based online RPG, differentiate classes by means *other* than how overall damage they do (specific *types* of damage, such as area-effect, can still of course see specialized classes). Yes, this requires content designed to support whatever other jobs a game utilizes. I can"t--won"t--believe that a majority of the people subscribing to these games are truly satisfied with doing nothing more than keeping a damage skill priority list running while not standing in the fire. Come on, that"s nothing but a contrived, whack-a-mole form of autoattack. Somehow it"s fun now because you have to push a key every 1.5 seconds just to maintain it? I think not.


Danth

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Keep an eye on Jumpgate, I believe they are attempting to do something like this.

I"ll be surprised if Jumpgate doesn"t sell well; two months to go and I"m certainly looking forward to it.


As for repeating past discussions, I"ll break the trend and say I"m all for it. If people have discussed it and don"t want to take part they don"t need to post. I"m all about constantly re-addressing things to try and improve them and somebody just might have a new idea or way of looking at something that hasn"t been considered before.


Personally, I find it literally sad that Caliane, Foghorn and Zehn are so jaded (or just taking for granted certain MMO mechanics will NEVER change ?). You three are amongst the best "game mechanic" posters on here and would be amongst the first I"d look to work with to make an MMO. Give me Pyros too and its a dream team



edit : We"ll bring Scott on board too - we need someone to make decent coffee.



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Once you begin to break out of the DIKU mold of game design, I"ll jump in and help you out with discussions.

DIKU is old and stale. You can"t redesign it since it"s been rehashed and redone for decades. You come up with any idea (on class/skill design) and I bet I can point to a MUD that did it 15 years ago.

In a DIKU class system you"re always going to have Frontline vs. Backline positions. You"ll have people in the backline supporting people in the frontline. You"ll have people stopping others from getting to the backline.

The only difference is how you get people to do those jobs. The way to break the mold on Tank/Healer/Support/DPS or whatever is to break the control scheme of how your playing the game. I think the biggest improvement will be on character control, i.e. FPS type control or an action/arcade way of controlling things. This is why I point to Jumpgate.

In jumpgate you don"t have static movement. Basically moving to avoid fire, else you stand and do your thing in one place. In jumpgate you"re in perpetual movement thus focused on your actions in space and not staring at a HP grid or a DPS meter. In Jumpgate, from my conversation with Scott Brown the CEO of NetDevil, you"ll have rolls of each ship, but it will be based on movement agility, firepower, weaponry selection and the combination of all of them.

You guys will see your theory of everyone is DPS in action, though how much that correlates between Jumpgate and a DIKU game is yet to be seen, but I believe the root of problem is how you control your character in space and your awareness of it.

Edit to add:
When you"re playing any DIKU game you"re still playing MUDS and the P&P games. In raids etc your always mostly reading and reaction to text cues or health bars. Boss mods, health bars, mana bars, GCD markers, DPS meters to the moist where everything becomes a series of choreographed movements. You don"t actually pay attention to your character and what he"s doing, your paying attention to all the data coming in at you. Sure there are some void zone fights, or Naxx Dancing etc, but ultimately you"re hardly ever paying attention to your characters location in space 100% of the time. You"re paying attention to dozens of other inputs.

Make a DIKU game based on having to pay attention to your character on your screen 90+% of the time and you"ll see a shift in class development. You"ll also see a shift in demographic playing your game as well. Many people like the idea of not having to coordination the movement of your character with the end results of a fight. My 60+ year old father is one of them, he hates twitch and he can"t really play it, but he"s successful in WOW to a degree.

The key is getting rid of healers.

FoghornDeadhorn said:

The key is getting rid of healers.

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You"re still going to have other archtypes if the gameplay doesn"t change.

FoghornDeadhorn said:

The key is getting rid of healers.

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Or a means of having other classes be able to take on the healing role to a lesser/greater degree.

I"m not particularly excited about DC"s MMO coming out for certain reasons, but one interesting feature is the character"s ability to take on different roles depending on the group (or individual player"s) needs. Players can select options to have abilities more as a tank, DPS, or healer from what I understand.

While this already exists in WoW to an extent via talent specs and gear, it seems to be the next step in MMOs, and the means of filling those roles could differ based on the class. Two examples of which some/most of the mechanics have existed for some time:

A ranger whose abilities in avoidance, parry and disarm allow them to be a functional melee tank;

A mage whose specs are in damage shields, CC (slows and snares and maybe threat generation) that could also effectively tank;

A priest/cleric specced in "anathemas" (curses) and smites (melee and ranged), and geared well enough that they could function well as a hybrid melee/ranged dps combo.


The biggest problem to me seems to be class balance while maintaining the individual flavor and functionality of the classes, but widen out the availability of the different archetypes to the classes (mage = tank? rogue = healer?).

As for getting rid of healers, one of the best models of healing class has to be the bloodmage in Vanguard. Fun to play and still functional without just being a "stand back and heal" class.

If MMOs stick with a class-based system, roles have to be as diverse and interesting as possible, and how those roles are utilized has to evolve.

As much as I like a skill-based system, I believe it hamstrings content development.

Draegan said:

You"re still going to have other archtypes if the gameplay doesn"t change.

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I agree and disagree. Combat has to take on a different dynamic when there are no healers. You"re always going to have tanking of some kind if there are controllable aggro mechanics and clear winners and losers when it comes to mitigating damage, but without healers you will not have the best mitigators just indefinitely taking damage. Hell, take a look at EVE. EVE has an aggro mechanic that can be summarized as "will attack first thing they see until one is dead or gone." They have mostly self-healing (though there are repair ships). People have figured out how to tank inthatgame.

Re: Unchained

What you"re talking about is back in the DIKU dynamic. Which I"m not necessarily saying is a bad thing, but I do think people need to know what they"re trying to argue for. You"re basically saying "let"s take known roles and spice them up a bit." No issue with that if that"s what you"re comfortable with, but in my opinion if you"re trying to get rid of DIKU the first thing you need to do is slam the value of combat healing classes.

FoghornDeadhorn said:

What you"re talking about is back in the DIKU dynamic. Which I"m not necessarily saying is a bad thing, but I do think people need to know what they"re trying to argue for. You"re basically saying "let"s take known roles and spice them up a bit." No issue with that if that"s what you"re comfortable with, but in my opinion if you"re trying to get rid of DIKU the first thing you need to do is slam the value of combat healing classes.

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Then what is another system that would allow for grouping against a "boss" or a number of other mobs without healing that isn"t based on the diku model?

Tracking health (health bars) and survivability are integral to the MMO experience, imho, since they allow for mistakes and difficulty in encounters up to a point. As long as health/health bars exist, there has to be DPS/CC/healing/tanking to maintain the welfare of said health systems. Too much independence and you might as well play a one-player RPG.

Maximum role flexibility per class seems to me to be the next logical step, but an alternate system hasn"t been discussed. Anything more than "class spicing/role flexibility" makes classes meaningless. Unless the option is to make encounters (solo/group/raid-large group) completely different at their core.

FoghornDeadhorn said:

The key is getting rid of healers.

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Yeah, I"d agree with that.


Many alternate class mechanics for that are in place already, going back as far as Diablo. Life leech, pets, debuffs, "obstruction" (Necro Bone wall) are four off the top of my head. And, of course, classes get "healing" abilities" even though there is not a dedicated healing class.

This one step of doing away with dedicated healers transforms the genre - party make up is far less constrained, less mudflation required in terms of mob HP (and DPS) and opportunity for more of a "fun" game than an exercise in "team building" every time you want to do something in a party.


I can see why some people think the next Blizzard MMO will not have "healing classes or archetypes".



edit : Its pretty sad that in many ways a Baal run in D2 is more fun than a boss run in WoW. You get down there and any of the classes can define the encounter. Every class has numerous abilities that can be key to the fight and produce a different experience - each run is different. Tanking is one option, but the key is its just an option and nothing more.

Now imagine if D2 used dedicated healer classes - straight away you know you need a tank, otherwise healers are defunct. In an instant every time you do that run you know you will need to do the same, controlled routine.


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We"re stuck with crappy class based games and grief based PVP skill systems until the tech gets good enough to build a truly immersive MMO.

Basically, we need a holodeck.

Get rid of healers and you"ll have to deal with massive potting. As long as you have a DIKU like model that involves group and large group combat situations you"re always going to need a healing mechanism. I don"t care what you call it whether its prevention or whatever.

You can"t get rid of it. However if you don"t use the DIKU model any more and create a new way of playing the game you can do a lot of things which I"ve described.

I disagree, healers have and always should have a place in these games. Healers by their very definition are the ultimate support character. They allow so much more gameplay by far extending the lifetime of an encounter beyond what a single solo player or group could handle without them. Are there ways to do this without healers? Yeah. But by far establishing some sort of healing mechanic done by a person other than the front line combat soliders is the easiest way of doing it.

What needs to go however is the whack-a-mole world of Barcraft game mechanics that healers inevitably fall into. I almost wish games would fall into a more realistic way of healing. For example, its on the front line fighter"s heads to remove themselves from the danger area (melee range for example) to fall back to the backline, where the healer waits. There he can be healed in hopefully something more interesting than a single button push. Things can be made more interesting for the healer by of course having attacks to do when no one"s hurt, and even putting themselves in danger to recover "knocked out" fighters.

I think the key isn"t eliminating healers, its integrating healing into other things. Blood Mage, Disciple, etc..They are healers, but fun as balls to play. I"d love to play a magic-based tank who didnt run around in armor; Being a cloth-wearer with the ability to tank based on DS/Rune/some self healing/etc would be fun.

I also think defensive proc damage (not Damage Shields, See EQ1 cleric aura line) is a good way to increase tank DPS.

There is certainly plenty of room discussing changes in healing mechanics and gameplay.

Draegan said:

Get rid of healers and you"ll have to deal with massive potting. As long as you have a DIKU like model that involves group and large group combat situations you"re always going to need a healing mechanism. I don"t care what you call it whether its prevention or whatever.

You can"t get rid of it. However if you don"t use the DIKU model any more and create a new way of playing the game you can do a lot of things which I"ve described.

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You throw DIKU around as some generic term for industry evil. It is a lot of little things, and you cannot generalize on that level and have a decent conversation. Either STFU or pick it apart in smaller chunks.

To respond to your "potting" concern, I don"t think it would be as simple as you claim. Restoration does not equal Prevention. Collision/Kiting does not equal Tanking. They"re individual and different. Combining all five of my listed concepts would give you a lot more choices. Restoration is always going to play a part, especially since you don"t start fights at low health, but it doesn"t have to play THE part.

Sucking down health pots to replace healing is retarded, I agree, but putting forth that idea is just as retarded.

Draegan said:

However if you don"t use the DIKU model any more and create a new way of playing the game you can do a lot of things which I"ve described.

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This is what I think needs to happen most of all... find alternate systems. I tend to watch my toon or the environment more than anything in WoW (and other games) and it gets me into trouble. The disconnect required detracts from my enjoyment of the game. If the system rewarded this instead I"d be better off (and having more fun). I mean, what"s the point of having all these nice visuals if they mean close to nothing? Moreover, if you ARE watching them then it"s likely you aren"t doing your job. Seems counterproductive to me.

Dyscord said:

What needs to go however is the whack-a-mole world of Barcraft game mechanics that healers inevitably fall into. I almost wish games would fall into a more realistic way of healing. For example, its on the front line fighter"s heads to remove themselves from the danger area (melee range for example) to fall back to the backline, where the healer waits. There he can be healed in hopefully something more interesting than a single button push. Things can be made more interesting for the healer by of course having attacks to do when no one"s hurt, and even putting themselves in danger to recover "knocked out" fighters.

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Part of the problem is healing has remained static and AD&Dish throughout the Diku MMO timeframe.

We have the same HP model. tank X has so many HPs.

Healer has base spells
Heal. Heal More. Heal a shitload.

Cure Disease. Cure Poison. Cure Curse. Etc.

It"s all a big spreadsheet with numbers going up and down. 20,000. minus 8000. Plus 7000.. No immersion. No realism. No depth. Heck, Elitist jerks has more numbers and bullshit thrown in than the TARP plan.

It doesn"t seem hard to change things.

What"d be cool is if a critical hit lopped of an arm, and you lost so much AC and HPs until you went to a temple to have it healed, or replaced via a divination to a God. If not you"re stuck down so much until you do that.

It"d be good if healing abilities were derived based on accomplishments and what one could do would be based on sacrifices or giving to ones God or source of power.

Diku mud styled MMOs can add housing, mounts, achievements, etc, but at the end of the day the core mechanics are the AD&D based combat. I disagree that there is little room for improvement. There are miles of neat things that could be done to add depth and make it more fun.

The problem is too many people are happy with the status quo and are appeased by new shinies and bosses +3 adds to kill.

GuyJantica said:

This is what I think needs to happen most of all... find alternate systems. I tend to watch my toon or the environment more than anything in WoW (and other games) and it gets me into trouble. The disconnect required detracts from my enjoyment of the game. If the system rewarded this instead I"d be better off (and having more fun). I mean, what"s the point of having all these nice visuals if they mean close to nothing? Moreover, if you ARE watching them then it"s likely you aren"t doing your job. Seems counterproductive to me.

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That really has nothing to do with the DIKU design model. That"s just a lot of misplaced emphasis on different aspects of the UI and game world. There are games that have a more interactive game world and less UI like Black & White. I approve of going in that direction, but I think it"s an entire dimension of design that has been neglected by the entire 3D gaming industry.

For example, the basic UI for WoW has all unitframes in the top left, action bars on the bottom, and buffs/debuffs+minimap in the top right. The amount of time you have to spend shifting focus from one corner of the screen to another is ridiculous and just flat out neglected. For those of us with 20"+ monitors, it"s getting out of hand. I can only imagine in another few years when 30" comes down in price. You don"t get to look at the environment much because too little of this information is visually apparent in the world.

I couldn"t be more disgusted by the basic UI for WoW and many other MMOs. Obviously mods are highly supported in WoW, and they fill that gap in intelligent design. Unfortunately then it"s the player"s responsibility to fix a defect in the game to maximize their potential, and that still dodges the core issue of the UI being far more relevant than the world.

First of all, let me say I"m not advocating anything - just trying to get us all to engage in a discussion and throw ideas around

Dyscord said:

I disagree, healers have and always should have a place in these games. Healers by their very definition are the ultimate support character. They allow so much more gameplay by far extending the lifetime of an encounter beyond what a single solo player or group could handle without them. Are there ways to do this without healers? Yeah. But by far establishing some sort of healing mechanic done by a person other than the front line combat soliders is the easiest way of doing it.
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1. When you say that healers extend an encounter, is that not purely defined by the damage output of the mob and its ability to do "x" amount of damage ? In short, the need for healers is a design decision whereby the mob is made to be able to do X damage to a tanking character, where X is defined by the tanks maximum HP, his mitigation and armour, with potential healing factored in.


1(i) There is no reason why a boss encounter in Diablo 2 cannot be considered an "MMO" encounter, where the same equation for mob DPS is used as in (1) - except that mob DPS is considerably less, due to there being no dedicated healers in the class design. Yes it widely uses potions, but, again, that is factored into the mobs DPS calculation.



2. As long as a game has a class system which uses dedicated healing classes every single party and raid encounter is going to be based around the same boring template - tanks that can taunt, healers that keep the tank(s) alive, throw in some dps and maybe have some utility like slow or cc.


Is it not asinine that the class system in Diablo is so much more fun than anything ever approached in any MMO - that being a game that was developed in the mid 90"s as, originally, a DOS based game ?

Why could this class system, with so much individual class diversity, with so many different permutations for builds within each class, leading to dozens of different tactics every time you face a boss, not be translated into an MMO ?

I suggest, the only reason is that we as an industry take for granted the need for a dedicated Healer archetype.



My whole point is based around the following quote :

Flight said:

Its pretty sad that in many ways a Baal run in D2 is more fun than a boss run in WoW. You get down there and any of the classes can define the encounter. Every class has numerous abilities that can be key to the fight and produce a different experience - each run is different. Tanking is one option, but the key is its just an option and nothing more.

Now imagine if D2 used dedicated healer classes - straight away you know you need a tank, otherwise healers are defunct. In an instant every time you do that run you know you will need to do the same, controlled routine.

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As I said, I"m not saying this should be done - I"m throwing it out for debate. Just why could a Diablo type class system not be made into an MMO ?


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