Well, Curt just said that beta these days is essentially the game you are going to release. I agree with that. But if that"s true, then where is the purpose of the NDA? Is it really protecting theft at that point? If you are that close to release (close being a relative term) then no competitor will have enough time to actually copy the mechanics that presumably need to be hidden. So what is the NDA doing? Protecting ideas from another developer that is going to need a 3-5 year development cycle to actually emulate? I don"t get it. Maybe there is another reason, but everyone seems to fall back on the intellectual property problem. I can understand early in the development process, but NDA"s in the way we mean it apply to "beta testers" and are thus only in place in the last 18 months when the game is more or less finished.Believe said:
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Uh, what? It is because every recent MMO (post WoW) has sucked complete ass that they all use and enforce a strict NDA. How did you not understand that? How is anyone suppose to know a game is "fucking awesome" as you put it if there is a NDA in place? Hint: MMOs that are "fucking awesome" don"t have to keep tight lipped right up to the day they launch. They have nothing to fear.Believe said:
If a game does have a NDA and turns out to be amazing will I play it? Of course. You can bet your ass though that I (and many others) are done listening to marketing bullshit. You won"t catch me pre ordering or buying CEs of ANY game that holds to their NDA. I am tired of dropping $50-100 bones on junk. Wait a month and they all seem to fold in one way or another.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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tl;dr version: An NDA is only pointless if the game sucks shit.
la~
It"s not like an NDA means jack or shit anyways. Oh noes, what are you going to do? Revoke my account? If I"m going to break that shit chances are I don"t give a fuck. It"s like banning someone who"s about to quit anyways.
Even worse is you have to be a pretty significant retard to get caught. Want to break the NDA without getting caught? Here"s a pro-tip.
Step 1) Make friends with someone who doesn"t give a shit.
Step 2) Have him post your scathing review.
Step 3) ...
Step 4) Profit.
The irony is that I"ve never really felt the need to break an NDA anyways. Either I"ve enjoyed the game and respected their request that I not say shit or the game has been so laughably bad everybody else and their cousin has already blasted the game to shit long before I"ve felt the need to add my 2 cents.
So yeah, if the game is good an NDA is okay. But so would a note saying "Please don"t share your game experiences since we have an exclusive interview with a handful of magaizes where they"re going to give us a nice rimjob in exchange for inside info."
la~
It"s not like an NDA means jack or shit anyways. Oh noes, what are you going to do? Revoke my account? If I"m going to break that shit chances are I don"t give a fuck. It"s like banning someone who"s about to quit anyways.
Even worse is you have to be a pretty significant retard to get caught. Want to break the NDA without getting caught? Here"s a pro-tip.
Step 1) Make friends with someone who doesn"t give a shit.
Step 2) Have him post your scathing review.
Step 3) ...
Step 4) Profit.
The irony is that I"ve never really felt the need to break an NDA anyways. Either I"ve enjoyed the game and respected their request that I not say shit or the game has been so laughably bad everybody else and their cousin has already blasted the game to shit long before I"ve felt the need to add my 2 cents.
So yeah, if the game is good an NDA is okay. But so would a note saying "Please don"t share your game experiences since we have an exclusive interview with a handful of magaizes where they"re going to give us a nice rimjob in exchange for inside info."
Keep in mind that NDAs are also there to protect information that"s going to be used in marketing. If journalists score an exclusive preview, which means a cover or front-page for the game (win!), those journalists are gonna want the information that they report to actually be exclusive. Granted, there"s varying demographics that may or may not cross-pollinate but it"d be a bit foolhardy to not attempt to control the flow of information in light of what can be used to market your title.
That having been said, I won"t argue against the idea that an NDA helps hide faults
That having been said, I won"t argue against the idea that an NDA helps hide faults
Yeah I agree, and I think Curt pretty much said that when he stated that once a game goes to beta it really needs to be polished for releaseLost Ranger said:
Ngruk said:
I have never really bought into the "theft" aspect of an NDA. Chances are if you have a Beta the competition is already in it. Plus by the time they see your secret sauce it"s not likely they are going to be putting it in their game the next day right?Fammaden said:
The NDA allows the publisher an opportunity to release information as they see fit.
It won"t hide a crappy game, people will talk.
I don"t think that the game would need to be anywhere near perfect when it gets opened up for Beta. Sure, if you"re working with graphics then I would expect for the vast majority of that to be taken care of. Whatever world/environment you"re working on and playing in needs to be hashed out before a Beta can take place.
But as far as class balances, and things like that.... Well, you may not want to go the route of Vanguard where a handful of us in the 1st and 2nd stages of Beta were basically telling the game designers what to do with the class, etc. But if you think that you have a class reasonably balanced and you want to test it out in virtually any situation imaginable then you"re going to have to open it up to the masses for the information. And sometimes things just don"t work. I work on networks as either a network engineer or a system administrator. Half of the time we"ll design things for the government and they"ll look great on paper, but when put into the hands of idiots they flop. Idiot and masses can be interchangable here...
As far as an NDA goes, I"d say that through the first 1-2 phases it"s crucial. You want to keep as much "in house" as possible in the early stages. If your game needs a few tweeks, then you keep everything tight between those in your community, so that you can all work towards making the game a better experience. We"ve all seen people give horrible reviews about things that haven"t been fully implemented/tested, etc. While most will write it off as still being Beta... it could do irreparable damage to those that embellish the story to a wider market.
Shrug.
But as far as class balances, and things like that.... Well, you may not want to go the route of Vanguard where a handful of us in the 1st and 2nd stages of Beta were basically telling the game designers what to do with the class, etc. But if you think that you have a class reasonably balanced and you want to test it out in virtually any situation imaginable then you"re going to have to open it up to the masses for the information. And sometimes things just don"t work. I work on networks as either a network engineer or a system administrator. Half of the time we"ll design things for the government and they"ll look great on paper, but when put into the hands of idiots they flop. Idiot and masses can be interchangable here...
As far as an NDA goes, I"d say that through the first 1-2 phases it"s crucial. You want to keep as much "in house" as possible in the early stages. If your game needs a few tweeks, then you keep everything tight between those in your community, so that you can all work towards making the game a better experience. We"ve all seen people give horrible reviews about things that haven"t been fully implemented/tested, etc. While most will write it off as still being Beta... it could do irreparable damage to those that embellish the story to a wider market.
Shrug.
Jozu
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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But what is the base reasoning behind enacting a serious NDA?
Is it because this...
"You want to keep as much "in house" as possible in the early stages. If your game needs a few tweeks, then you keep everything tight between those in your community, so that you can all work towards making the game a better experience."
or this
"used as a shield to hide the suck far too many times. The only "secret" they are trying to keep is that the game is horrible and they want to keep their box sales and hype high."
Honestly, I cant see why a developer would want to keep a lid on people who play their game unless it had major flaws, or unfinished key features that the consumer is counting on being there on day one.
Saying a NDA is a tool to keep shit "in house" is screwed up IMO. Just because a few retards decide to throw dirt on a game just for the sake of doing it, doesnt mean the game will suffer. If the game is fucking fun, then its fun, and the general consensus/word of mouth is going to win the day every time. If the game isnt fun, and fucking sucks, then those retards were just a precursor for things to come.
Is it because this...
"You want to keep as much "in house" as possible in the early stages. If your game needs a few tweeks, then you keep everything tight between those in your community, so that you can all work towards making the game a better experience."
or this
"used as a shield to hide the suck far too many times. The only "secret" they are trying to keep is that the game is horrible and they want to keep their box sales and hype high."
Honestly, I cant see why a developer would want to keep a lid on people who play their game unless it had major flaws, or unfinished key features that the consumer is counting on being there on day one.
Saying a NDA is a tool to keep shit "in house" is screwed up IMO. Just because a few retards decide to throw dirt on a game just for the sake of doing it, doesnt mean the game will suffer. If the game is fucking fun, then its fun, and the general consensus/word of mouth is going to win the day every time. If the game isnt fun, and fucking sucks, then those retards were just a precursor for things to come.
I think NDAs are bad policy because it shifts your publicity to mostly negative. The people who like it are quiet and follow the NDA and the ones who don"t shout from the mountaintops about how bad the game is. That said, if I were to beta test again.. like actually test as opposed to just demo the game, I wouldn"t give a fuck either way. I guess more people have a strong opinion on it though so whatever.
curt, i have a great idea: tell ut that he can have a beta invite, but to get one he has to stand 15 feet in front of you and let you bean him in the head with a fastball. i"m visualizing something like a kenny powers fastball when he knocked that guy"s eye out. i think that"s a fair exchange.
oh, and ut, you fucking suck.
oh, and ut, you fucking suck.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I have a better idea. And we can let the FOH people vote.etchazz said:
If he releases an outstanding game, I will stand there as a tackling dummy, and he can come at me like Rudy on a roid rage for a huge tackle and I won"t move.
If he releases a pile of shit, I will just say I told you so again because I am right more than Sex Panther.
Oh, and retard, you are still a faggot. Tell your mom.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Oh really my retarded dipshit fastball buddy?Ngruk said:
WoW, had jack shit in beta 2. We went crazy and instanced our asses off in Scarlet Monastery. That was the end game for us. And we posted our fucking balls off. Are you fucking serious? Christ, even Mippo helped and posted about not being able to eat and drink in combat.
This shows again that you are the biggest clueless moron that has ever hit this industry. You do not need a finished product for beta. You need something that works and all you have to do at that point is add content. And you are confident your product doesn"t fucking suck. You want to copy WoW? Copy their quality. Until then, analyze your ass off with add on UI"s, and buy your names; until you come out with a quality game and NOT slap an NDA on it even during development like WoW did, you"re the Brad McQuaid of baseball.
You will always lose with me. Why? Because when it comes to games I am not a sell out like your shiny 38 special ass. (I"ll be at the concert back stage up here in MN when they play with REO Speedwagon and Styx at the state fair, let me know if you want to go so I can humiliate you in person with a cheese stick and beer in my hand because that"s more fun than on the forums where you obviously have sucked because you know so little about the industry you bought your way into and needed something to keep you busy after the "Athletic retirement".) I know more about development, creative design, well christ, I am sorry... That"s not fair...
That Ecthazzz moron up there? He knows more about that than your CEO.
I talked to my mom last night after 5 glasses of whine at Olive Garden. That place sucks ass now because they opened it up for the all you can eat and all the mexicans show up. She even said she heard about your shenanigans and the closest she has come to games is mystic lake Casino and the nickle slots.
Seriously, you have no fucking clue. So please, continue to post your bullshit spin. If the FOH God"s allow me (After you fucking PM"d one to have me banned) I will be here to call out your bullshit. Day after day pal. Why?
Because while I understand retired pro athletes needing something to do,(Don"t go the McNair route) I don"t understand why it always have to be about money and ego"s (Oh Hi Brett Close - the fucker wanted to better your company and you canned his ass) and you are the... without doubt...
The next Brad McQuaid.
As much as the guy fucked up with Vanguard, at least he"s passionate about games for a reason.
You are here for the dollar and to keep your sanity after retirement.
Love you pal.
-Not a sell out.
PS: He won"t post here after he opens his forums so he can moderate any bad shit that comes his way. Grassroots works both ways.
I have insider info (Again) that your product is the titanic. I have not seen it personally but I didn"t need to see it with Vanguard either.
You are out of your league here. And your idiot ego will get the best of you, just like it drove out the best thing that ever happened to your company.
Seriously? Why not say something about his mom, too, and make this thread that much more awesome.
I purposely played WotLK without starting a Death Knight for the past 8 or so months. I didn"t want to get caught up in the hype and miss stuff. I wanted to be able to experience it after it had been tweaked/nerfed to normalcy.
Add to that I"ve been on an MMO hiatus of late, just can"t seem to get the engine revved up to MMO this year.
Started to change that this weekend, started a Death Knight on Malfurion.
I get what all the hype was, at least for the starting portion of the class. Not even arguably really, that is some of the best design from a content and experience perspective I"ve had.
DK minions? Check! DK Mount? Check! Slaughtering innocents? Check!
I guess what I wonder now, is that an expected "starter" experience? It"s dynamic, it"s engaging, it"s fun as hell, there"s a great story, all of it.......
Add to that I"ve been on an MMO hiatus of late, just can"t seem to get the engine revved up to MMO this year.
Started to change that this weekend, started a Death Knight on Malfurion.
I get what all the hype was, at least for the starting portion of the class. Not even arguably really, that is some of the best design from a content and experience perspective I"ve had.
DK minions? Check! DK Mount? Check! Slaughtering innocents? Check!
I guess what I wonder now, is that an expected "starter" experience? It"s dynamic, it"s engaging, it"s fun as hell, there"s a great story, all of it.......
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Actually what is more scary is a 70 year old mom ripping the shit out of Curt "The shill" Schilling and praising me that I didn"t sell out like he did for the sake of a buck and pretending to love games because that"s the next step for cash.Lleauaric~EW said:
You blind ass fanboy fucks.
