Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Twobit Whore said:

So are you saying that this:

Can only happen in the first scenario and not in the second?

That makes no sense.

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Bullshit. It is far more fucking likely in the wait an hour for perfect group scenario than the first and you know it.

In any event this whole discussion is becoming retarded. A properly designed class system combined with decent level designs = no required classes for any 5/6-man content.

Going back to hybrid design. You need "a" healer -- doesn
t matter if it is tank/healer, healer/dps, healer/pet, healer/cc. You need "a" tank -- doesn"t matter if it is tank/dps, tank/healer, tank/pet, tank/cc etc.

The advantage of an all Hybrid class system is that it is much, much fucking easier to fill up "needed" class spots. PCs can fill multiple roles so you can get a workable group sooner and get the hell to the dungeon.

Seriously Tad, it"s the dumbest idea ever. If you can come up with the design docs for all those tank classes, with names and class defining rolls that make each class unique I"ll eat my words.

But if you have a Tank CC and a Heal CC do both have the same CC abilities but different names? What about DPS CC and BUFF CC? What differentiates all the CC?

Any hybrid CC should be roughly equivalent CC ability. Same that any hybrid with Tank should be roughly equivalne tank abilty. Any hybrid with X should do X roughly as well as any other hybrid with X.

Class differentiate is accomplished by the unique combination of abilities. There is only one Tank/Healer class or one Tank/CC class. There is only one Healer/DPS class or Healer/CC class. This means that if a group is looking for Healing it can take any healer: Tank/Healer, Healer/DPS, Healer/CC, or etc. Same deal with tanks.

That just a ton of classes all watered down and almost the same. Very bland.

Why not just make a game with only one class and skip all that fluff?

Personally I"d rather see the tri-class make a comeback. If you cant fill all your group needs that way then you never will. But please oh please Curt don"t continue this "needed" healer/tank system because as for me I refuse to get involved in another game that forces me to waste half my playing time trying to find one just to do some content.

Hybrids have been the bastardized shitclasses of all MMOs to date, and the solution is to make ALL the classes into hybrids? Wow.. that"s going to be a fucking winner there.

If you want to create a large scale MMO that is based off of Fantasy and High End Game raiding all of which is strictly PVE you will need distinct class roles, that are well defined and unique or else it will fail.

I say we go back to old school Diku so when you log in all you see it:

Please choose a race:
[ Human Dwarf Elf Gnome ]

Please choose a class:
[ Warrior Mage Thief Cleric ]

Twobit Whore said:

Hybrids have been the bastardized shitclasses of all MMOs to date, and the solution is to make ALL the classes into hybrids? Wow.. that"s going to be a fucking winner there.

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Was a blast in DSO and Aol"s NWN (shrugs). Plus I think the PVE aspect of these games are really secondary anyways.

You"re really gonna break out AOL NWN? Fuck I"ll break out Shadow"s of Yserbius on my 2400 baud modem on Sierra INN Network. You needed tanks and dps and healers. Thats the first MMO back in 1991.

You gotta admit, it"s not every day you see a Shadows of Yserbius flame here. Props.

Just out of curiousity, have you played any hybrid classes in MMOs Twobit? I"m not picking a fight, you just seem to vehemently hate them. I"ve played them in every game but wow (fuck having to be a healer hybrid of any kind) and I"ve certainly never come to the same conclusion you have.

Draegan said:

You"re really gonna break out AOL NWN? Fuck I"ll break out Shadow"s of Yserbius on my 2400 baud modem on Sierra INN Network. You needed tanks and dps and healers. Thats the first MMO back in 1991.

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Oh please NWN had exactly what many want, a community (especially off the message boards), and truly skill based pvp. Yeah it was corney in graphics, but the pvp was the best, just will never be repeated. People were paying $300 monthly phone bills just to play it.

Rezz said:

Just out of curiousity, have you played any hybrid classes in MMOs Twobit? I"m not picking a fight, you just seem to vehemently hate them. I"ve played them in every game but wow (fuck having to be a healer hybrid of any kind) and I"ve certainly never come to the same conclusion you have.

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Played them in several games, and I can"t think of a single one that did a hybrid well. In the end they get pigeonholed into one basic function and if they can"t do that as well as someone else they are like the fat retard on the playground.. last to be picked.

Sks in EQ were as close to an omni class as the game presented. Puller, Tank, DPS in one. CC in a pinch and it wasn"t the "best" at any of those, a true hybrid that brought a lot to the table in many situations, including raids. Also the various hybrid dps/healer combinations in FFXI were liked in many groups. Bards were also very powerful in EQ and FFXI. VG"s DK was retardedly high DPS for a tank class, and it went about doing it"s jobs very differently from other dps/tank classes. More often than not I was picked over the staple warrior class to tank. If you are talking about 100% endgame, these classes were also useful in that too (of course, VG had no endgame when I quit playing it, so that"s a moot point.) and not just from a one-trick pony standpoint. If anything, the primary classes were more pigeonholed than the hybrids of those primaries.

Keep in mind, I am in no way advocating that the entire game be made up of hybrids, far from it. Of course you want your standardized "lolz I tank but nothing else" class, but that only really compliments a group that requires a full tank to function. A tank that puts out higher than normal dps will be killing things in certain group archetypes with less risk than the full tank would be.

The only "hybrid" class I can think of in all honesty that got the full shitcan of ass balance was the WoW paladin. If you aren"t a holy paladin, you are wasting space for the most part. And you"re there to heal. Very one-dimensional for a supposed hybrid class.

Hmm working hybrids are usually the tank/dps ones, at least from my experience. Anything with heal get pigeon holed into healing, or their healing is REALLY shitty(aka I can pot for more hps than you 45secs hot) and they"re dps. Tank/dps usually works fine tho since it"s more of an item issue, you switch your gear around and you can fill both roles, since they basically are the same thing, meleeing. My DK in vanguard and my arm/prot war in wow(for a certain amount of time, and in various situations thru bwl/naxx, but I gotta admit sometimes I had to spec full prot, like when we were low on healers) were pretty good hybrids since I could fill both roles decently.

But healing hybrids are usually taboo, and I think that"s mainly because of pvp issues, you just can"t have a char that can heal and do something else in pvp(heal and tank makes it overpowered in group fights, heal and dps overpowered in solo pvp). Also, because of the general low number of people playing healers, but also because of raid designs, you need a good number of healers to do stuff and so every hybrid will be forced to purely heal.

At least in the raid perspective, the current issue with healing hybrids is that they do their healing "too" well. If Shamans had their l33tsauce chain heals and shit on retardedly long reuse timers, but they brought more to the table damage and utility wise, they wouldn"t be required as healers, and they could do other stuff while their heals were refreshing. Why they gave paladins the super ridiculous mana efficiency they did and extremely potent healing gear is beyond me, they basically told the entirety of WoW that any paladin that isn"t a healer is most likely a retard or a waste of space in most situations. Had the healing aspect been toned down a little, and the other utility options enhanced, you"d still have them on raids, but they wouldn"t be in the primary healer category.

I think healing hybrids are possible, they just have to be really balanced around the concept of being a hybrid as opposed to "you have mana and heals, grats on healing" no matter what other skills they bring to the table. And in that respect I agree, they haven"t been done very well in the past.

Rezz said:

If Shamans had their l33tsauce chain heals and shit on retardedly long reuse timers, but they brought more to the table damage and utility wise, they wouldn"t be required as healers, and they could do other stuff while their heals were refreshing.

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Yeah, like farm motes of air or browse the auction house, because they sure as shit aren"t coming on raids. You might bring a token one along for a WF group but the rest of their sorry asses got replaced with a priest/paladin.

At no point did I say leave them as is, the tradeoff being more damage and better utility.

If the only reason your stacking shaman is healing, and you reduce healing, you have to sort of add in other incentives to having more than a token one around. Which is what I said. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Twobit Whore said:

Yeah, like farm motes of air or browse the auction house, because they sure as shit aren"t coming on raids. You might bring a token one along for a WF group but the rest of their sorry asses got replaced with a priest/paladin.

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This is where Blizz fucked up on the whole 40 vs 25 raid size. They should of left shit as is and then everyone has spots on a raid and is not prone to min maxing your 25 man with certain clases. You would of had your 40mans, which were perfectly fine, then you could of had you 20 and 10 mans just like in Vanilla.

Same can be said about groups. Why have groups limited to 5 people? Open that shit up to 8 and then you can have more classes.

Fuck having 4 classes in todays mmos. This is not 1990 and all this shit is getting played out. I want something new, something revolutionary which does not center around the whole warrior, mage, priest, thief, bullshit. If thats all you can come up with in 2010 then you already failed IMO.