Gun control

Zombie Thorne_sl · Dec 29, 2012

Access to small arms means the ability to gain access to larger arms. In any event that US soldiers were ordered to attack civilian targets with heavy arms/armor there would be instant defections and the military as we know it would be in complete disarray. There have been a number of scenarios and studies to show this.

UnobservantBastard_sl · Dec 29, 2012

Selix_sl said:
Ok since you didn't answer this directly I am just going to quote it and assume this is your position until you say otherwise. As I stated before there are massive differences in this discussion based on which position you take otherwise I wouldn't bother with the clarification.

I have repeatedly and specifically mentioned the US military instead of other militaries of the world because they are not comparable to the US military. The US spends more on defense the the next 14 countries combined. We have the most advanced tech in every field. Now in comparison to the Syrian army there is this list onwiki. This is most defiantly an out of date and inaccurate list but even wildly inaccurate it is still laughable compared to the US military.

What this means in the context of civil war the United States is that Syria is a much as example of what a civil war would look like in the United States as if two local towns in Texas decided to rise up and fight each other.

For example what would the guerilla warfare look like in Syria if they had access to the huge numbers of drones with precision guided missiles and trained personnel that we do?Hint.

Or the ability to sit off shore and send cruise missiles anywhere they wanted? Or hell just use aircraft. And let us just keep ignoring nuclear weapons as any civil war in the United States would never have either side willing to use nuclear weapons. Of course if that is untrue for even 1 person who has control or might be convinced to support one side then that side wins.

And I specifically said look at the US military with all those drones and other tech against Iraqis and afghanis. Small arms in their hands had us at an impasse until the locals started helping. They were bleeding us dry until that happened. Did we kill a lot of them? Yep, but they were killing us too, and making it hard to hold territories.

Dashel · Dec 29, 2012

Detroit:http://www.freep.com/article/2012122...text|FRONTPAGE

With only a few days left in 2012, Detroit is poised to see its highest murder rate in nearly two decades.

As of Dec. 16, there were 375 homicides -- more than the total each year since 2008, according to Detroit Police Department statistics.

The majority of the homicides were the result of gunshots, and most of the victims were black men

Chicago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2378073.html

MOST VICTIMS AFRICAN-AMERICAN

Chicago's McCarthy said the city's high murder rate, up 18 percent over last year as of Dec. 16, was due to gang violence. Eighty percent of the homicides were gang-related and 80 percent of the victims were African-Americans, he said.

Blacks make up about 33 percent of the city's population, according to the 2011 estimate from the U.S. Census.

In August, six people were murdered in the city on a single weekend day, the highest one-day death toll of 2012.

McCarthy and other officials blame the surge on a splintering of the city's traditional gangs and the rise of new cliques and factions that are vying, often violently, for control of turf on the city's south and west sides.

The spike in homicides was especially dramatic in the first quarter of the year, when murders jumped 66 percent. So far in the fourth quarter, McCarthy said, the murder rate is down 15 percent compared with the same period last year. Police have arrested 7,000 more gang members this year than in 2011, he said.

"We're doing what we can do and it's working," McCarthy said.

Aychamo BanBan · Dec 30, 2012

I love that they don't mention that the majority of the MURDERERS were black too.

Araysar · Dec 30, 2012

why would you want to stop black gangbangers from killing each other?

Dashel · Dec 30, 2012

I would want it stopped. I cant imagine being born into that atmosphere. Not to mention the gangbangers who will shoot you because you wear the wrong color, you have the wrong color skin or even just because... not to mention stray bullets hitting people. I wouldnt care if they all shot each other but that doesnt happen in a vacuum and they dont just kill each other. They recruit more people in and it's never ending.

New York by way of contrast has a low in murder rate. The police credit this to "stop and frisk"

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced on Friday that the nation's largest city could finish the year with the lowest number of murders and shootings since 1963, when it began keeping comparable data. The number of murders this year in New York is only about one-fifth the total of 2,245 homicides recorded in the peak year of 1990.

Kelly attributed the decline to the increasing use of stop-and-frisk tactics, when police can stop and search people on the street they consider suspicious.

"We're preventing crimes before someone is killed and before someone else has to go to prison for murder or other serious crimes," Kelly said in a statement.

Civil rights groups and some local politicians have criticized stop-and-frisk tactics, saying that most people stopped turn out to be innocent, and they unfairly target black and Latino men. The practice is the subject of a federal court case over whether it is unconstitutional.

New York has also spent $185 million to settle lawsuits filed against the police during the fiscal year 2011. A total of 8,882 suits were filed against the NYPD, a 10 percent increase from the prior year, according to a report by the city's comptroller's office.

Araysar · Dec 30, 2012

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...g-2524596.html

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...#ixzz2GOP72zBX

On Sunday December 17, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his X-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater. The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It's like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant!

Now aren't you wondering why this isn't a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting?

There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened.

Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week. Just thought you'd like to know.

Sulrn · Dec 30, 2012

Araysar_sl said:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...g-2524596.html

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...#ixzz2GOP72zBX

While I wish I could say this happens all the time, I can't. I can, however, say that it is completely plausible to say it would be a shocking statistic how many Castle Law, Self Defense, and CCP/CWC cases don't get carried by the national cock holster.

What would be fun is to find a few starving college kids and pay them to do their dissertations in Homeland Defense Studies/Psych/Communications/Law to follow up on Alissa Miller's TED presentation and delve into what does get covered and why; perceived bias vs true bias; and media corps funding.

Ref:

opiate82 · Dec 30, 2012

Sulrn_sl said:
While I wish I could say this happens all the time, I can't. I can, however, say that it is completely plausible to say it would be a shocking statistic how many Castle Law, Self Defense, and CCP/CWC cases don't get carried by the national cock holster.

What would be fun is to find a few starving college kids and pay them to do their dissertations in Homeland Defense Studies/Psych/Communications/Law to follow up on Alissa Miller's TED presentation and delve into what does get covered and why; perceived bias vs true bias; and media corps funding.

That "An Opinion on Gun Control" essay that Blakkheim posted had a great break-down of showing how CCW results in a huge net positive on crime prevention even based on statistics available. Even despite the fact that most of the time unless the weapon is fired, the use of the gun isn't recorded as a reason a crime was prevented. However it is estimated that the number of times a weapon simply being brandished has prevented a crime far outweighs the number of times discharging a firearm has prevented a crime.

Big Derg_sl · Dec 31, 2012

I saw this last night.http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...nhealth31.html

Word · Dec 31, 2012

Araysar_sl said:
On Sunday December 17, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his X-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater. The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It?s like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant!

Now aren?t you wondering why this isn?t a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting?

There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened.

Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week. Just thought you?d like to know.

I hope this story makes it to the national headlines. Curious to see how this story can be spun to be anti-CCW somehow

Gavinmad · Dec 31, 2012

Big Derg_sl said:
I saw this last night.http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...nhealth31.html

Yeah, I got as far as this

Article_sl said:
But physician groups and researchers see the provision as part of a decades-long strategy by the gun lobby to choke off federal support for studies into firearms injuries,which may soon overtake motor vehicle accidents as a leading cause of violent deaths in the United States.

before I lost interest because the article is garbage.

chaos · Dec 31, 2012

Word_sl said:
I hope this story makes it to the national headlines. Curious to see how this story can be spun to be anti-CCW somehow

You don't really have to "spin" the story to come to the conclusion that an off duty cop is going to be in a much better position to handle that situation than some random person.

Zombie Thorne_sl · Dec 31, 2012

chaos_sl said:
You don't really have to "spin" the story to come to the conclusion that an off duty cop is going to be in a much better position to handle that situation than some random person.

This absolutely untrue in many areas of the country. I would much rather have 5 random folks from around here in that situation than 90% of any law enforcement officer. I have nothing but respect to any officer of the law, but the overwhelming majority are worthless behind a trigger.

fanaskin · Dec 31, 2012

chaos_sl said:
You don't really have to "spin" the story to come to the conclusion that an off duty cop is going to be in a much better position to handle that situation than some random person.

no that's what you are doing, spinning.

opiate82 · Dec 31, 2012

chaos_sl said:
You don't really have to "spin" the story to come to the conclusion that an off duty cop is going to be in a much better position to handle that situation than some random person.

The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by law enforcement: 14. The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by civilians: 2.5.

Yes, an off duty police officer is going to be better equipped than a random person. However, a random person with a gun still has a chance at limiting collateral damage.

chaos · Dec 31, 2012

Thorne_sl said:
This absolutely untrue in many areas of the country. I would much rather have 5 random folks from around here in that situation than 90% of any law enforcement officer. I have nothing but respect to any officer of the law, but the overwhelming majority are worthless behind a trigger.

Look, that is just nonsense. I mean yeah, let's all rah rah against gun control and stuff. But a trained officer/soldier/whatever, especially one with actual experience, is always going to respond better in a situation like that than some soccer mom heading out to buy groceries. I'm from West Texas, probably not far from where you live, and I'd rather have the off duty cop than some halfass wannabe cowboy with his concealed carry permit. All day erry day.

chaos · Dec 31, 2012

opiate82_sl said:
Yes, an off duty police officer is going to be better equipped than a random person. However, a random person with a gun still has a chance at limiting collateral damage.

That statistic doesn't really reflect what is being said, though. And is it even still a "mass shooting event" when only 2 people are killed? How do you quantify "mass shooting event?"

opiate82 · Dec 31, 2012

I believe a "mass shooting event" is quantified as such when it appears the perpetrator has the intent of shooting as many people as possible and the targets are mostly random. I do not have a text-book definition for you though.

Zombie Thorne_sl · Dec 31, 2012

chaos_sl said:
Look, that is just nonsense. I mean yeah, let's all rah rah against gun control and stuff. But a trained officer/soldier/whatever, especially one with actual experience, is always going to respond better in a situation like that than some soccer mom heading out to buy groceries. I'm from West Texas, probably not far from where you live, and I'd rather have the off duty cop than some halfass wannabe cowboy with his concealed carry permit. All day erry day.

You are right, it is generalizations on both sides. And my social circles are not representative of the whole. But saying this as someone who has spend thousands of hours shooting with and training officers, I am amazed by thier lack of skill and training.

Our auxiliary police chief shot himself in the leg holstering his side arm a few years ago.

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