Hearthstone

khalid_sl said:

Why do you say this? WoW has some of the tightest class balance of any MMO ever, at least in pve, which is their focus. Starcraft is competitive because of the balance that they put into it.

I can't think of any MMO or RTS that has nearly the balance of the Blizzard versions.

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Duppin is new to this thread.

But rest assured that he has already figured it -all- out and is now here to elucidate us, the unwashed masses.

Wow, this conversation took a turn to scrub town. It's like I accidentally went to to the hearthpwn forums or something.

Duppin_sl said:

It might force warlocks to use smaller cards,and I don't know the game well enough yet to know...

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1) Totally destroying handlock would be stupid. It's a reasonably balanced control archetype and has a role to play in a healthy meta.
2) The suggestion you're supporting would totally gut handlock (hello, lifetapping for 20 damage?) but leave zoo fine, and zoo seems to be the deck you have the problem with.

Duppin_sl said:

Is that actually a problem though? If it's a deck that is overly played, breaking it might be a good thing.

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What is overplayed? What percentage of your total matchups does a deck have to reach or exceed to become overplayed? My personal numbers show that zoo is popular, but overplayed? Admittedly overplayed is a subjective concept none of you guys have really bothered to define, but I'm seeing zoo about 15% of the time in my ranked matches. Is that really a problem?

As for Warlock's hero power, yes it's obviously the best in the game. That doesn't, however, mean that Warlock is even the most powerful class in the game. Here's a June tier list:
Power Rank: Pre-Naxx / June 2014

TLDR: lock = #3

Are Warlocks strong? Sure. Are they overplayed/destroying the meta? Hardly. Or at least not according to my data.

double post, fuck yeah

Lol. Sounds balanced

You all would have killed the entire genre if you guys were in charge.

Duppin_sl said:

Is that actually a problem though? If it's a deck that is overly played, breaking it might be a good thing.

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Rogues rule the meta with Lock/Druid right behind - if you're grinding the ladder you don't need the links above to recognize this. Why go after what is 2nd or 3rd best?

That aside, one of the reasons Zoo is so popular is that it's the most accessible ladder-competitive deck. It's certainly the first one I turned to when I had no cards - was dirt cheap to round out. You don't need any legends, you don't need a bunch of giants or combos involving rares etc.

Just talking out of my ass but IF the hero power really needed changing, maybe something like "deal one/two damage to your hero, increase a minions (I dunno health or attack) by one/two"

All of you guys that insist on talking about changing warlock's hero power, please first go look up a handlock deck and figure out how it works.

Jesus.

I'm not sure you're being quite condescending enough.

Step up your game.

That is an easily shifting thing based on the cards in the game.

Looking at just the hero powers, it's a clear outlier.

You're right, I was probably being overly douchey. I've come to have a really low tolerance for nerf threads in the hearthstone community, but that's not really your fault.

Yes, the Warlock class ability is quite good. It's also mechanically interesting (especially in a game with somewhat limited draw engines) and makes possible stuff like handlock being viable. It should be noted too that it does have disadvantages. It doesn't--unlike the other "good" class abilities--directly affect the board. The life cost too does also cost locks in some matchups.

As others have already mentioned, the big reason that you see so many locks on the ladder is that zoolock is a really cheap but still very competitive deck. FTP style players or those on a budget will naturally gravitate to it. Some people just even use it to rank up to 5 since it's a fast deck.

At any rate, all I'm trying to say here is don't take the prevalence of zoo as a clear indicator that warlocks are broken and need fixing. It really isn't like that.

I don't ENTIRELY disagree. (Caveat is that I literally started playing days ago)

But what people have been saying is right: if card power inflates, which it almost always does in these games, the warlock will become more problematic.

Right now, it might overall be okay, but it scales in a way that no other hero power does.

They could start with a simple nerf on Doomguard. That shitface is out of control in zoo deck. I think it alone makes me lose many games to zoo.

Losing health equal to the cost of the card drawn (Warlock Hero Power) is a terrible decision. That's not a nerf. That's gutting the class.

I'm not willing to go quite so far as to say that the Hero Power is overpowered but it is, clearly, the best. The Hero Power is the reason Zoo works. That's why other classes don't run Zoo decks. They lack the card draw to keep up intense pressure throughout the game. That's also why you can't just nerf Doomguard and call it a day (not advocating for or against a Doomguard nerf). If they nerf Doomguard, Zoo loses a bit of power but they just swap in the next best minion (Argent Commander perhaps since they perform similar roles even if they're not as sturdy).

Personally I don't know what the answer is. Zoo is very beatable (and in this Meta, if you can't go 50% against Zoo, you need to rethink your deck) but it is annoying how common it is. Again, part of the reason that it is so common is simply because it's a cheap to make competitive deck. I do agree with the person who said that in hindsight, if the developers were to go back in time, they'd have gone a different direction with the Warlock Hero Power. I just don't think you can make a change to it at this late date without serious repercussions. Is it the best Hero Power? Without a doubt. Is it overpowered? Jury is still out.

All solid points I agree, but in reality I suspect Blizzard is not happy with the current situation. It just harkens back to pre hunter nerf, they did NOT like that every deck was either hunter or built around countering hounds. And right now for casual timmy its either zoo or build to counter zoo, its just that prevalent. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm certainly not the greatest at HS and have no prior CCG experience. But I am accustomed to seeing how Bliz does things and I think there's a nerf down the road. What form that nerf could take therefore becomes a valid concern.