Help with rain damage and insurance claim

Frenzied Wombat · May 16, 2015

Looking for someone that has any knowledge or experience with home water damage and insurance claims. Basically I live in a 3 story condo comprised of 5 units total, which was built back in 2008. On the 3rd story, there is an uncovered patio that sits atop the 2nd floor dining room. Basically since day 1, whenever there has been crazy driving rains (about 2 times a year) all units would get minor leaks from the living room ceiling under the patio. Initially the builder implemented minor fixes (caulking, sealing the patio cement, reframing patio windows), but testing their effectiveness was always difficult because the leaks only occurred under driving rain. Eventually it seemed his lame fixes held, as we didn't have a leak in a year (in reality, it was just a dry year), and his warranty obligations expired. He never determined the exact source of the leak (there isn't any apparent failure when looking at the patio), and just basically threw caulking, paint, and sealant at it. Well, starting last week we started getting crazy rains and the other homeowners stated they had minor leaks in the usual locations (drips from ceiling light fixtures and vents). Well, last night I'm dozing on the couch when I hear a large rip. I get up and see the surreal image in the attached pictures. 10 minutes later the whole ceiling comes crashing down.. I then spend 2 hours picking up wet drywall and mopping the floor..

This morning I call the insurance company (building HOA insurance, not individual homeowners) and they send out an adjuster.. He basically says it's up to the insurance company, but to him it looks like water has been seeping/collecting for some time (even if it wasn't visible) and typically coverage only includes "sudden" water problems, like those caused by bursting pipes. Furthermore, he said he needs a "cause" for the water damage (like a missing shingle) and like everybody who has looked before him, he can't determine where the leak is coming from on the patio. Without an actual cause, the claim can't even be processed. Seemingly, "leaking from the patio" isn't a specific enough cause.. Meanwhile, I have no fucking clue what to do. I have a gaping wound in my ceiling, and it's supposed to fucking thunderstorm all week. What to do Relloled bros??

khalid · May 16, 2015

That insurance adjuster sounds like he was going through a checklist of bullshit ways to get out of paying a claim.

AngryGerbil · May 16, 2015

Skip to :42

AngryGerbil · May 16, 2015

Get on the roof with bricks and a tarp? How emergent is the situation?

Chanur · May 16, 2015

Sounds like they fucked up the flashing or didn't put any. That really sucks man.

Gavinmad · May 16, 2015

Any competent roofer will find the leak in 5 minutes. Hell I have only done a handful of flashing repairs and I could probably find it inside 15 at the most. The people who have been looking for the source of the leak are completely and thoroughly incompetent.

Shit, with enough quality pictures of the roof in question I could probably at least point out the most likely places to look for the leak, although pictures are no substitute for being on the roof. Not that I'm expecting you to post pictures of your condo on RR, lol.

Seriously though, any roofer worth their salt could find the leaks damn near immediately, unless the whole patio is fucked up or something.

Mist · May 16, 2015

My advice is to just keep pushing the insurance company if they deny you. They will always try to deny you for shit like this. Any secondary damages should still be covered.

Also you will likely need an inspection from an independent roofer or engineer. NEVER EVER trust the engineers the insurance companies send out. They've always being caught trying to fuck people out of their claims.

BTW, get that insulation out of there as fast as possible. You don't want the insulation trapping moisture against the wood. Get everything that's wet exposed to as much dry air as possible.

ValkyrieIATD · May 16, 2015

Sandbag the perimeter of the patio. Fill it with 3-4 inches of water. Fill a bucket with heavily dyed water (blue, red, green). Carefully dump the dyed water and watch where it goes.

Gavinmad · May 16, 2015

ValkyrieIATD_sl said:
Sandbag the perimeter of the patio. Fill it with 3-4 inches of water. Fill a bucket with heavily dyed water (blue, red, green). Carefully dump the dyed water and watch where it goes.

Jesus fucking christ do not do this.

lurkingdirk · May 16, 2015

Mist is correct. Persistence to the point of being an annoying jerk is the best way to move this forward with your insurance company.

Also, don't fix your ceiling until you've had a competent roofer there to fix the leak. Shouldn't be that hard to find.

Kedwyn · May 16, 2015

Generally the HOA policy only covers structural items (think the shell of the building) and not unit owners. Just about every HOA I've ever seen is like this so if that is the case your unit damage would be covered under your own HO6 Condo owner policy you bought to protect your actual unit. There are usually two policies involved with Condos, the owners and a commercial policy for the building. Owners are usually responsible for the sheet rock in and you would need your own policy for that coverage.

As for the loss, its a normal loss from what you describe. If he wants a Proximate cause, that would be the rain storm and that is it. I wouldn't give him any info that its a regular issue because that becomes a maintenance problem and not something they would be liable for. If people start volunteering that info then you are adding significant hurdles you might not be able to jump over. I'd stress that the units have been free of issues for over a year after the last reputable contractor fixed the problems and that SHOULD be enough to push your claim forward.

Tarp the area to prevent further damage. Pictures and receipts are a must and you can effect repairs to prevent further damage and wait for the insurance company to provide you details. I suggest if you communicate via email or mail so you have everything in writing.

TXjohnny · May 16, 2015

Do not worry about what the adjuster said. This is exactly the kind of incident that you pay your insurance premiums for. The definition of "sudden" is not as limited as he is making it sound.

First thing, you need to email and call the adjuster, the insurance company and the HOA about your concern of additional water damage as we are supposed to get more rain tonight and the rest of the week. That's right, I know where you live, I was able to triangulate your location from the reflections in your pictures. Just kidding. Seriously though, document your concern about additional damage, it should help speed up getting someone out there to put tarps or something on your patio to keep the rain out. Insurance companies retain companies like Dalworth for this very type of situation. Plus, if more damage occurs after you asked your insurance company for help, well, that's an argument that can only help you later.

Do you have a copy of your policy? If not, it should be easy enough to get from your HOA. There will be a section on water damage. HOAs are usually responsible for the exterior walls on condos and townhomes, a leak from outside is going to be their responsibility (again, take a look at your HOA docs for who is responsible for what, it will be spelled out). Was it the HOA that contacted the builder to make the initial repairs? If so, the fact that the HOA knew there was a problem and attempted, but failed, to have it fixed will help. Regardless, what is likely to happen is that your insurance will make the repairs and then may look to go after the builder's insurance company for faulty repairs if they can somehow show this is what caused the leak.

Document everything. Take lots of pictures of any damage. Also, keep a journal of dates, times, who you spoke with and the subject matter of every phone call you make or receive from the insurance company. This is probably overkill, but it's easy enough to do.

Finally, what is your deductible? 1%, 2%, more? It looks like you have some sheetrock and insulation damage to a limited area. If the cost of the estimated repairs are not likely to exceed your deductible, you can be sure your insurance company will let you know.

Edit: by all means, if you can place tarps to prevent further damage, do it. Keep the receipts of any expenses you incur for reimbursement.

Adebisi · May 16, 2015

Grats condo ceiling! Was it a boy or girl?

Frenzied Wombat · May 16, 2015

Gavinmad_sl said:
Any competent roofer will find the leak in 5 minutes. Hell I have only done a handful of flashing repairs and I could probably find it inside 15 at the most. The people who have been looking for the source of the leak are completely and thoroughly incompetent.

Shit, with enough quality pictures of the roof in question I could probably at least point out the most likely places to look for the leak, although pictures are no substitute for being on the roof. Not that I'm expecting you to post pictures of your condo on RR, lol.

Seriously though, any roofer worth their salt could find the leaks damn near immediately, unless the whole patio is fucked up or something.

Here's a picture of the patio.. We've had a number of people, including one engineer come out and look at it in the past. In all cases, they just make "guesses" as there's no obvious source of the leak. Some think it's the drip pan under the patio, others think it's the windows, while others think its the interface between the patio surface and the stucco walls. One leak that was conclusively fixed for me years ago that they actually bothered to trace when they ripped open the ceiling to repair it literally came from a pin-prick sized hole in the caulking around the patio windows.

In any case, for this specific leak/disaster they should be able to trace it since my ceiling is a fucking gaping wound at the moment. I have an engineer scheduled to come by Monday morning. As for the insurance company, I'll definitely fight them since you don't need spidey sense to tell that this will be fucking expensive to repair. Unfortunately, looking over the policy details, they have specific exclusions for patios and "seeping water damage". It's fucking ridiculous actually what they won't cover. Basically, as per the writing of the policy, unless it's a burst pipe or a storm that blows your fucking roof off, they don't cover it. Anything that comes through cracks, expansion, or wear and tear (even if there was no way to see the "wear") is excluded.

The saddest thing is we've been trying to address this for awhile, but every fucking "leak detection" company or contractor we've tried in the past is a fucking joke. They're all either gap-toothed rednecks or Mexicans that can barely provide an invoice using an MS Word template lol.

Kaige · May 16, 2015

I can't imagine the drainage for something like that.

Frenzied Wombat · May 16, 2015

TXjohnny_sl said:
Do not worry about what the adjuster said. This is exactly the kind of incident that you pay your insurance premiums for. The definition of "sudden" is not as limited as he is making it sound.

First thing, you need to email and call the adjuster, the insurance company and the HOA about your concern of additional water damage as we are supposed to get more rain tonight and the rest of the week. That's right, I know where you live, I was able to triangulate your location from the reflections in your pictures. Just kidding. Seriously though, document your concern about additional damage, it should help speed up getting someone out there to put tarps or something on your patio to keep the rain out. Insurance companies retain companies like Dalworth for this very type of situation. Plus, if more damage occurs after you asked your insurance company for help, well, that's an argument that can only help you later.

Do you have a copy of your policy? If not, it should be easy enough to get from your HOA. There will be a section on water damage. HOAs are usually responsible for the exterior walls on condos and townhomes, a leak from outside is going to be their responsibility (again, take a look at your HOA docs for who is responsible for what, it will be spelled out). Was it the HOA that contacted the builder to make the initial repairs? If so, the fact that the HOA knew there was a problem and attempted, but failed, to have it fixed will help. Regardless, what is likely to happen is that your insurance will make the repairs and then may look to go after the builder's insurance company for faulty repairs if they can somehow show this is what caused the leak.

Document everything. Take lots of pictures of any damage. Also, keep a journal of dates, times, who you spoke with and the subject matter of every phone call you make or receive from the insurance company. This is probably overkill, but it's easy enough to do.

Finally, what is your deductible? 1%, 2%, more? It looks like you have some sheetrock and insulation damage to a limited area. If the cost of the estimated repairs are not likely to exceed your deductible, you can be sure your insurance company will let you know.

Edit: by all means, if you can place tarps to prevent further damage, do it. Keep the receipts of any expenses you incur for reimbursement.

HOA deductible is 5k. My concern isn't so much the cost of the drywall repair, but the cost to identify, locate, and fix the source of the leak. My feeling is that the design/construction of the patio as a whole has been FUBAR from day 1. Thanks for the other tips, I am contacting them now about getting some sort of tarp or other preventative measure out here.

Frenzied Wombat · May 16, 2015

Kaige_sl said:
I can't imagine the drainage for something like that.

It basically runs off the edge where those planters are into a gutter, but the patio itself isn't inclined or anything. The gaping vagina wound in my ceiling is basically right below the edge of the patio near those planters.

Gavinmad · May 16, 2015

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Here's a picture of the patio.. We've had a number of people, including one engineer come out and look at it in the past. In all cases, they just make "guesses" as there's no obvious source of the leak. Some think it's the drip pan under the patio, others think it's the windows, while others think its the interface between the patio surface and the stucco walls. One leak that was conclusively fixed for me years ago that they actually bothered to trace when they ripped open the ceiling to repair it literally came from a pin-prick sized hole in the caulking around the patio windows.

In any case, for this specific leak/disaster they should be able to trace it since my ceiling is a fucking gaping wound at the moment. I have an engineer scheduled to come by Monday morning. As for the insurance company, I'll definitely fight them since you don't need spidey sense to tell that this will be fucking expensive to repair. Unfortunately, looking over the policy details, they have specific exclusions for patios and "seeping water damage". It's fucking ridiculous actually what they won't cover. Basically, as per the writing of the policy, unless it's a burst pipe or a storm that blows your fucking roof off, they don't cover it. Anything that comes through cracks, expansion, or wear and tear (even if there was no way to see the "wear") is excluded.

The saddest thing is we've been trying to address this for awhile, but every fucking "leak detection" company or contractor we've tried in the past is a fucking joke. They're all either gap-toothed rednecks or Mexicans that can barely provide an invoice using an MS Word template lol.

Call an actual roofing company, preferably a union one. Not an engineer, not a contractor, an actual roofing company. Even though that's not a roof, you won't find anyone else with more experience repairing leaks. As for the leak itself, if there is a layer of corrugated metal between the patio and your internal ceiling, you would be surprised how far away the leak could be from your water damage.

The biggest potential problem I see with that patio is standing water/improper drainage. I'm guessing that patio isn't designed so that water drains out of it properly, which means you get puddles of standing water, which is how you get such dramatic water damage from what was probably a pretty small leak. If water was draining properly from that patio, it's very possible that you never would have had any significant water damage to your ceiling, despite the leak. Next time it rains (regardless of whether the leak has been 'fixed' or not) I'd go up there and see how well the water drains out of the patio. It's possible you need to get a contractor to add a little bit of cement to angle the floor ever so slightly towards the water drain. There is a drain somewhere along that external wall right? Also possible your upstairs neighbor is obstructing the flow of water to the drain with those planter boxes, which would also contribute to standing water.

Really it just seems that the design of that building is a fucking nightmare.

Big Phoenix · May 16, 2015

Thats some top notch paint, holding up all that soaking drywall and insulation.

lurkingdirk · May 16, 2015

Gavinmad_sl said:
The biggest potential problem I see with that patio is standing water/improper drainage. I'm guessing that patio isn't designed so that water drains out of it properly, which means you get puddles of standing water, which is how you get such dramatic water damage from what was probably a pretty small leak. If water was draining properly from that patio, it's very possible that you never would have had any significant water damage to your ceiling, despite the leak. Next time it rains (regardless of whether the leak has been 'fixed' or not) I'd go up there and see how well the water drains out of the patio. It's possible you need to get a contractor to add a little bit of cement to angle the floor ever so slightly towards the water drain. There is a drain somewhere along that external wall right? Also possible your upstairs neighbor is obstructing the flow of water to the drain with those planter boxes, which would also contribute to standing water.

Really it just seems that the design of that building is a fucking nightmare.

This man speaks wisdom and truth. Exactly what I thought. Take pictures of standing water when next it rains.

Help with rain damage and insurance claim

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