History thread

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Malinatar

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Total tangent. We really need to rename this website firesofwikipedia. It amazes much how much information (accurate or not) is posted everyday across all the threads. Pretty diverse group whose one common trait that brought us together is playing video games.
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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The Armenian region and the southern end of the Caucasus mountains had been marches or buffer states for a literal half millennium. Trajan went and ran apeshit over the Mesopotamian region (arguably the apex of the Roman Empire) in the start of the 2nd century and was followed by Hadrian and then others taking defensive approaches and perpetuating the region into buffers, clients, marches, etc. There were actually huge stretches of literal no man's land between Romans and Persians. The no man's land aspect (but not the satellites) even re-emerged bigger than ever once the Islamic vs Christian balance settled down in later centuries.

Going north through the Caucasus was a fool's errand. That region above Georgia (modern Chechnya etc) is geographically terrible. There were Roman settlements at the base of the Crimean Peninsula and at estuaries but they didn't bother to really expand that way either; it wasn't some unique Islamic shortcoming. In fact, Islamic expansion would be even more hindered because Constantinople's location meant the Black sea was a Roman lake, so even if they did manage to get up to Rostov and beyond what's the point? The best analogy I can give, which isn't THAT close, is how the Islamic spread skipped the northwest part of Iberia because it was a bunch of hills and scattered minor villages and not worth the effort it would take to subjugate for no real reward.

Islam was spreading east of the Caspian though. One of my favorite strange instances in history is that the Abbasid Caliphate and the Tang Dynasty ended up fighting in the middle of Asia: Battle of Talas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was probably fortunate for China that the geography protected them from foreign culture for god knows how long. The period of earring state was possibly their most prosperous years and after it is all downward spiral of decadence and stillness.
 
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yerm

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It was probably fortunate for China that the geography protected them from foreign culture for god knows how long. The period of earring state was possibly their most prosperous years and after it is all downward spiral of decadence and stillness.

That's sort of true but it gets exaggerated, and often conflated with future outcomes. The Qin were unifying China parallel to Rome defeating Carthage. The Romans end up arguably about two centuries behind the Chinese, conquering Gaul and dominating the whole of the Med and materializing as an empire about 2 later, and collapsing about 2 later. The Han dynasty rules from that (roughly) 200bc-200ad block and expands its borders over the river areas and comes across mountains in the west, emptiness in the north, ocean to the east, and jungles to the south. In this period Rome's empire is based around the Mediterranean which is a FAR superior internal transportation system (at least until this) with its borders also natural and better: Sahara desert instead of Mongolian steppes, and the Danube/Rhine line is a very solid potential for border over merely jungles. They both have one weak border, with China pushing a western pocket (the Han had a pretty awkward-looking setup going west) and Rome having its clients east.

Long story short, Rome had both a better internal network for connection and a better external natural border.

Further, Rome was even better at integration. The Han did a remarkable job of bringing the groups into a central framework, but the Romans were basically unmatched in stabilizing a culture with idealogy/values and common melding points such as language sharing. They were also arguably just as good at absorbing external cultures, with them becoming basically Greek and making it Roman, the way China would repeatedly just adopt outsiders and meld it into themselves.

When China collapses, it falls HARD. The depopulation takes centuries to recover. The religion is supplanted by a foreign one - Buddhism. Culture and society divides based on the nearby major river, so north/south. By Comparison, half of Rome doesn't even collapse - it would be like one of the three kingdoms being relatively unscathed for China. Christianity is established whereas Taoism flopped, then survives and even flourishes where Taoism and Confucianism are rendered beneath Buddhism. The period of ~4 to 800 in the west, the "dark ages" between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Carolingian rise, I would argue are actually far less severe than the 2 to 600 block in the east, between the fall of the Han and the eventual rise of the Sui and especially Tang.

What I think marks the big difference is that the Carolingian resurgence fails to reconstitute the Empire, fails to centralize at all, fails to restore the cultural appeal, etc. In contrast the Tang are often regarded as China's high point, with a restoration of the unified China and the massive population and ability to continue pushing borders from the seat of a very strong central government. The Carolingians (Charlemagne etc) were not necessarily some kind of awful failure, they were pretty great and successful in fact, but they simply were not great ENOUGH and the administration in particularly was rendered fully incapable of pulling off a return to a single unified empire. The alternative - the Eastern/Byzantine Romans, never managed to regain full control either. Justinian squandered resources trying to force it without good diplomacy and with poor use of great generals, and IMO their best hope was squelched when he went all in on Persia only to get hit by the unstoppable tide of Islam. The result is nobody ever managed to actually recreate the Roman Empire, and so only traces of it (like Romance languages & Catholicism) survived.


TL;DR China had inferior geography, weaker cultural unity and assimilation, and a far worse collapse. It was instead the fact that a future dynasty was able to reconstitute the Empire and perpetuate the concept that allowed it to continue, and easily repeat that feat once already having been done. Rome had better geography, stronger culture, superior religious unity, and half of it even survives its crash, but it ends up separating and staying separated and the idea of a perpetual "Rome" as a cultural and geographical entity dies out.
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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I would argue Chinese empires were far superior in integrating conquered lands and far superior central bureaucracy to keep the entire network intact. That is why China can never die while Roman empire did. It never returned. China did. For over two thousand years
 
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Big Phoenix

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I know we abstractly hear about how the Muslims were at the gates of Vienna after 1453. I had no idea about these battles and war though.

Here's what I've been reading this morning:

Siege of Vienna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Austro-Turkish War (1663–64) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Great Turkish War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God damn it I had no idea Muslims had been this aggressive towards Europe even in the Rennaissance. Like we're learning about Michelangelo and Shakespeare and shit and the Muslim hordes were literally at the gates.
Wonder how often that is taught in western history classes? I know I sure as shit dont remember learning anything about Ottomons marching in central Europe, or muslims forcing Europeans into slavery for a thousand + years.
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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Wonder how often that is taught in western history classes? I know I sure as shit dont remember learning anything about Ottomons marching in central Europe, or muslims forcing Europeans into slavery for a thousand + years.
western history classes are rare in high school, especially 1000-1500. usually 1600 and afterwards because of the religious reforms in Europe. They mostly teach religious war between Protestants and Catholics.
 
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Valishar

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I do love me some time lapse maps.

Although the first two points are probably ahistorical. (Indus Valley Hinduism, Abraham's exisitance).



Seems like Christianity is only big because of the age of exploration so we got to the Americas first. Seems like Islam is way better at spreading itself.
 
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Lleauaric

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I always thought the Grand Canal of China was the single greatest engine of moving humanity forward in history.

Seems it was the heart of Chinese prosperity and advancement.
 
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AngryGerbil

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That's sort of true but it gets exaggerated, and often conflated with future outcomes. The Qin were unifying China parallel to Rome defeating Carthage. The Romans end up arguably about two centuries behind the Chinese, conquering Gaul and dominating the whole of the Med and materializing as an empire about 2 later, and collapsing about 2 later. The Han dynasty rules from that (roughly) 200bc-200ad block and expands its borders over the river areas and comes across mountains in the west, emptiness in the north, ocean to the east, and jungles to the south. In this period Rome's empire is based around the Mediterranean which is a FAR superior internal transportation system (at least until this) with its borders also natural and better: Sahara desert instead of Mongolian steppes, and the Danube/Rhine line is a very solid potential for border over merely jungles. They both have one weak border, with China pushing a western pocket (the Han had a pretty awkward-looking setup going west) and Rome having its clients east.

Long story short, Rome had both a better internal network for connection and a better external natural border.

Further, Rome was even better at integration. The Han did a remarkable job of bringing the groups into a central framework, but the Romans were basically unmatched in stabilizing a culture with idealogy/values and common melding points such as language sharing. They were also arguably just as good at absorbing external cultures, with them becoming basically Greek and making it Roman, the way China would repeatedly just adopt outsiders and meld it into themselves.

When China collapses, it falls HARD. The depopulation takes centuries to recover. The religion is supplanted by a foreign one - Buddhism. Culture and society divides based on the nearby major river, so north/south. By Comparison, half of Rome doesn't even collapse - it would be like one of the three kingdoms being relatively unscathed for China. Christianity is established whereas Taoism flopped, then survives and even flourishes where Taoism and Confucianism are rendered beneath Buddhism. The period of ~4 to 800 in the west, the "dark ages" between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Carolingian rise, I would argue are actually far less severe than the 2 to 600 block in the east, between the fall of the Han and the eventual rise of the Sui and especially Tang.

What I think marks the big difference is that the Carolingian resurgence fails to reconstitute the Empire, fails to centralize at all, fails to restore the cultural appeal, etc. In contrast the Tang are often regarded as China's high point, with a restoration of the unified China and the massive population and ability to continue pushing borders from the seat of a very strong central government. The Carolingians (Charlemagne etc) were not necessarily some kind of awful failure, they were pretty great and successful in fact, but they simply were not great ENOUGH and the administration in particularly was rendered fully incapable of pulling off a return to a single unified empire. The alternative - the Eastern/Byzantine Romans, never managed to regain full control either. Justinian squandered resources trying to force it without good diplomacy and with poor use of great generals, and IMO their best hope was squelched when he went all in on Persia only to get hit by the unstoppable tide of Islam. The result is nobody ever managed to actually recreate the Roman Empire, and so only traces of it (like Romance languages & Catholicism) survived.


TL;DR China had inferior geography, weaker cultural unity and assimilation, and a far worse collapse. It was instead the fact that a future dynasty was able to reconstitute the Empire and perpetuate the concept that allowed it to continue, and easily repeat that feat once already having been done. Rome had better geography, stronger culture, superior religious unity, and half of it even survives its crash, but it ends up separating and staying separated and the idea of a perpetual "Rome" as a cultural and geographical entity dies out.

Yerm, can you speak to why Chinese dynasties seem to last so much longer than European ones?
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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Chinese central bureaucracy keeps Chinese dynasties push forward. For better or worse.

Chinese emperors had Harams of wives and concubines where they can pick and choose whoever he wants to fuck. Therefore,issue of dynasty is never in question so long as the emperor is not sterile.

Emperors had multiple wives. He would visit concubines on regular basis.
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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I do love me some time lapse maps.

Although the first two points are probably ahistorical. (Indus Valley Hinduism, Abraham's exisitance).



Seems like Christianity is only big because of the age of exploration so we got to the Americas first. Seems like Islam is way better at spreading itself.

once religion becomes institutionalized and is not challenged, the spread of faith is relatively easy. aggressive oppressive policy, coupled by relatively similar strain of monotheism gives rise to competing religions between Christianity and Islam. Judaism could never spread due to insular nature of "God's people." more or so Christianity as a strain of Judaism had to struggle through such identity.

It wasn't until Paul that Christanity broke into two camps. Converted Jews on one hand and Gentile Christians on the other.

For the spreading of religion, Catholic Jesuits did a pretty good job of spreading it around the globe. They are the main reason why so many of Southern America is Catholic and Japan was also on the verge of converting to Christianity until Tokugawa fucked the shit out of converted daimyo .

In China, there was a "Christian" inspired revolution called Taiping Rebellion.

It was an epic civil war between the government of Qing Dynasty and Taiping Rebels under Hong Xiuquan. A lot of Christians and the westerns don't know about this war, because of the fact that Hong Xiuquan preached "heresy" and such but nevertheless a Christian inspired revolution.
 
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yerm

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Yerm, can you speak to why Chinese dynasties seem to last so much longer than European ones?

Polygamy.

Edit - yeah, uh, basically on one side dynasties don't really struggle with dying out the way European ones do. Things like personal unions due to marriage politics don't come up. You can even see it with something like the Osman dynasty that was discussed, or various other muslim ones - when ruling families have a dozen wives, they don't run out of heirs.

Internally they fell victim to internal backstabs and stuff too. It wasn't like bothers never fucked shit up, or mom tried to keep ruling, etc. It's just it stayed in the family and the dynastic empire wasn't going to get eaten by a neighbor in the meantime.
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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Polygamy.

Another factor is the bureaucracy that exist solely because of the centralized government of China. Emperor on a hindsight gets all his advice from the bureaucracy...Just keep breeding and look pretty. It doesn't matter how effective and how shitty your ruler is because the bureaucracy will take care of it. That is why Chinese empires fall and rise constantly because jostling families, eunuchs, court appointees all struggle for power.... Corruption becomes rampant, assassinations frequent, and court intrigues heightened. Eventually, civil unrest and the rest is revolution or fall to invading power from the North or the East.


Coincidentally, current Chinese Communist Party is heading towards the same path.

lel.

The functions of the state does not need Emperor's oversight nor his complete knowledge. Centralization often, in China's case, means power to the governing body. Emperor at the helm. Scholars, bureaucrats, eunuchs, and prestigious family. Now I don't say "elites" here. That is because Chinese bureaucracy is a meritocracy where everyone has a chance to earn a degree whereby you will be granted government position in armourly, army, factory, farming, towns, etc.

There are multiple sets of examination hierarchy. Each level grants you higher and more prestigious positions within the government. With that, you are set for life.

The significance of this centralized system depletes civilian independence and increase dependency on the centralized authority.
Surely though you a lowly peasant can become a highly prized scholar if you do it right and have the right mentality.
 
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Adebisi

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I told my mom about the Blueprint for Armageddon podcast I was listening to and she busts out all her old WW1 stuff from my great-grandparents/cousins/uncles. My great grandmother was on the final (successful) voyage of the Lusitania from England to NYC with my infant grandfather. Showed me a bunch of postcards and some other stuff from an event held on the ship.

I want to ask great-granny why she was travelling to England in fucking 1915. Jesus.

lu.png
 
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zzeris

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I told my mom about the Blueprint for Armageddon podcast I was listening to and she busts out all her old WW1 stuff from my great-grandparents/cousins/uncles. My great grandmother was on the final (successful) voyage of the Lusitania from England to NYC with my infant grandfather. Showed me a bunch of postcards and some other stuff from an event held on the ship.

I want to ask great-granny why she was travelling to England in fucking 1915. Jesus.

View attachment 137404

That shit is cool. I love all the old memorabilia and shit like that is rare as hell.