build either a time machine, or perhaps some kind of de-aging device, so everyone stays in highschool, college, or a housewife who's kids never grown up.
Also guild ties are forgotten, so every mmo is a new building experience, instead of bringing a previous guild or social relationship into the game, that fractures when the guild player base don't all like the new game, or beelines for "end game" forsaking new social experiences.
One thing I ponder when thinking about guilds, is that technically to re-socialise a game, it doesn't necessarily have to be happy things and all about sociable people. Perhaps being anti social could be considered social too? And by anti social I mean some people actually being enemies. I always loved the idea of guilds going to war with each other, but I just never see it happen. I think EQ had a command or something, but you just don't really see stuff like that. And I don't mean some dudebro 'guild' of 4 high school buddies fucking about with some other guild the same. What I mean is like the top 2 guilds on the server, big guilds with 50 people each and lots of high level powerful players. One day they step on the toes of the other big guild on the server, maybe fighting over a raid mob or something, and it all blows up and now they are at war - true war. Any player can PVP any player in the other guild. And their homes or guild halls could be attacked and raised. They can be trained or kill stolen or whatever, anything goes. War is war.
Maybe it goes on for ages like a stalemate or maybe it's a kind of 'cold war'. Or maybe one guild just ends up getting hammered and lose thousands of gold, loads of XP loss, their guild hall is in ruins, and they have to surrender or something. In other words, I would love to see an MMO that has an actual 'society' kind of like real life. Not just about chatting with groupmates. People are playing with real people and reputations matter, good people are actually valuable to you, they are real allies not just someone you talk to when you want a rez.
I guess Eve might work like that but I can never bring myself to play it.
Find some altruists with a few millions to throw at game . Plus gaming staff who would experience full body orgasms if the total active player base never went over 50,000 monthly subs at 5 dollars a pop after a free download and 30 day trial. Oh and make the sub fee payable with ebt cards )
Not really. There are some minecraft servers like that, and some player run Neverwinter Nights modules and stuff like Ultima Online emulators which are sort of close.
But no real games are that quite that bold. DayZ needs time to fester and then maybe some people in the games industry will wake up and realise that actually, not every gamer is a whiny little tart. The finished DayZ standalone has a good chance of changing things for the better.
The problem with coming up with solutions for a problem like this is that we don't have the framework of an actual game to talk about real solutions, so we are left with generalizing and making assumptions about some "every game".
I have been kicking around an idea for a game that I think would create a large amount of socializing. I wont post some huge design doc, but I will give a brief overview and explain why I think it would be a good social game. (Sorry for the mass or unorganized ideas, this is the first time I have put any of this stuff down, so much of it is in rough draft form.)
Basics
The game takes place within the abyss (not the movie you shitheads). The abyss is essentially an afterlife of sorts where souls fall into it by passing through a portal located far above the bottom of the realm. The portal is the only substantial source of light for the entire realm and floods the areas directly underneath it with harsh white light. The further from the portal players travel, the darker the areas become until they are wandering in pitch darkness. There are many light sources within the abyss such as crystal formations, the deep fires that well up from far below the abyssal plane, certain creatures, and most evidently, a lamp that every player comes equipped with.
When players first wake up they find themselves on the floor of the abyss, somewhere near the periphery of the light shed by the portal. The denizens of this world seek out fresh souls and the players who have them. It is not long before a new player finds themselves being pursued by the monstrous and horrific hungering hordes that inhabit the darkness. They must seek the shelter of the light of the portal or be consumed.
A players only defense, when they first start, against these creatures is the lamp they come equipped with. This lamp glows with an unearthly light and is in fact powered by the players own soul. A player may consume some of their soul reserves in order to force their light to shine much more brilliantly than normal. This drives back monsters and creates a safe zone around the player for a short period of time, giving them time to try and escape.
Dying will cause a player to lose a portion of their soul energy. This causes the lamp to become dimmer. Which allows monsters to get closer before feeling any adverse effects from the light. If a player should lose all of their soul energy, they will turn into a statue wearing all of the items they had equipped, and then respawn directly beneath the portal with only their lamp. If they should return to their statue first, they may be able to recover their equipment as it is up for grabs to any who should find it.
Items are forged using soul energy and some reagent type items. This equipment can also be unmade and turned back into raw energy at a net loss and loss of the reagent. Many of the most powerful reagents are found on either powerful creatures or deep within the abyss waiting to be discovered.
A player can refill their lamp by standing in the lighted areas found directly beneath the portal. For a sense of scale the portal sits many miles above the floor of the abyss. Here the players will find the ruins of a city that is bathed in this light and serves as the location for their respawn point should they lose all soul energy.
A players lamp is limited in how much energy it can hold. This limit increases with levels. However, a player can divert their soul energy into crystals. These crystals act as batteries that can refill lamps instantly when needed, also the crystals act as the main currency. Rarer crystals can hold more energy. So players can charge up their lamp through proximity to the portal's light, and then dump their energy into crystals. The rate at which players recover soul energy is quite slow.
Players can directly transfer souls to one another by touching another players lamp. The players lamp acts as their bind point for respawning while they still have soul energy. So the player can leave their lamp in a safe location, and go venturing, die, and respawn at the lamp after taking a hit to their soul energy. The lamp however has a limited range, dictated by the lamp's level. A player that tries to wander beyond their lamps range will start to suffer from soul burn, essentially a dot effect to their soul energy. The lamp can be upgraded by investing soul energy towards leveling it up. A player can slowly accumulate soul energy in the safety of the light of the portal, or venture forth and tear soul energy from the dead or find it in crystal deposits and accumulate it much faster, provided they do not constantly die.
A players lamp level and soul energy levels will be visible to any who wander near it. So a person who was feeling very generous could walk around and fill up people's lamps that they come across.
On a darker note, players would be able to kill one another for their energy. The aggressor in a pvp conflict stands to win 25% of their victims current soul energy. The defender stands to win 50% of the aggressors souls, taken not from their lamps reserve, but taken straight from the current lamp level. This means when a pvp aggressor dies, they lose an amount equal to 50% of the total required to level up their lamp. This means they could potentially de-level if they are currently at 49% or below completion of the current level. This is very damaging to say the least.
When a player makes a big kill like this, the total souls they win might be more than their lamp can hold. They are given the option to fill any empty soul crystal they might have or invest the soul energy back into their own lamp.
A persons actions will dictate the color of the light from their lamp. Players that routinely heal others lamps will become brilliant white. Players that defeat the monstrous dwellers found in the darkest reaches will become bright blue. Players that prey on other players will become a deep red. Players that are first starting out will begin as a dull amber. Players that have traveled too long in the depths, far away from the light may come across things that should not be seen may have their light become tainted by darkness. These players are cursed and will drain away the soul energy of any who approach them until they are healed of their curse or killed outright.
Social Aspects
Players will quickly realize that combining forces has a multiplicative effect on their efforts and not simply and additive one. When two players stand side by side, their lights merge and become much brighter together than they would have been separately.
Also players will be asked to chose a path to specialize in. This specialization process comes in the form of a soul gem. This gem is originally contained within the players lamp, and is the source of the skill that allows them to make their light shine to push back the darkness. Once extracted from the lamp, the soul gem can then be attached to any other piece of equipment the player is wearing, or placed back in the lamp. The gem grants different skills based on the equipment slot it is placed in. The level and number of skills provided are based on the level of the gem. The gem's level is derived from the players lamp level. Once a player achieves a certain lamp level, a new soul gem will spawn within the lamp which can then be socketed into a new item slot. The total number of skill gems a player can have is limited to three. Also a player's lamp level becomes divided by the total number of socketed soul gems. So a player at level 100 can allocate 100 levels to a single gem, 50 to two gems 33 to three gems (+1 to one of those) or any combination thereof that totals the players current lamp level.
The skills derived from these gems is determined by the items they are placed in. Placing a gem in a weapon will unlock skills that take advantage of that weapon type. A player can mix and match any number of items with their gems, but they will only ever have access to three separate skill groups at a time.
Players will also find that they gain entirely new abilities when grouping with other players. These group skills are determined first by which items the character has their personal soul gems socketed into, and secondly which items the other team members have. The player gains a single group skill per gem they have socketed. So three group skills at higher levels. These group skills are often much more powerful than normal skills, but often come with a longer cooldown.
Players can combo skills together as well. Certain skills when used in rapid succession will produce results far greater than the individual skills could have alone. Group skills can also sometimes be combined. These combinations are some of the most powerful techniques available to players and often involve transforming a member of the group into an avatar with very advanced skills and powers for a limited period of time.
A players soul gems become their light sources when traveling away from their lamps. From a distance, a players soul gem locations and colors should be a fairly accurate indicator of what kind of character they may be. Sword, shield and armor gems that are blue, probably indicates a pve tank. Double daggers and boots that are red, might be a roguish character looking for a fresh player kill.
Items that are socketed with a soul gem will not be lost when a player is turned into a statue.
Soul gems can only be removed or socketed at very specific locations, with the only one initially existing at the portal ruins.
Players will have the ability to create safe havens from which further exploration into the dark unknown can occur. A safe haven is simply created by placing a players lamp down on the ground. The strength of a haven is determined by the total number of lamp levels within it's proximity. Once a haven reaches a certain strength, players can begin establishing more permanent structures and buildings to help fortify the position, or offer other services such as crafting locations and soul gem re-socketing.
Construction of these buildings is done simply when a player who currently has their lamp placed within the proximity of a haven, puts forth a vote to all current haven members. The soul energy cost of the structure is split by everyone who agrees to build it. Once the structure is built, it will generate soul energy for everyone who aided in it's construction every time it gets used. So if a blacksmith is constructed, whenever anyone forges an item, all the contributing members receive a portion of the soul energy spent in the forging.
Because of the limited range of the lamps, players must establish new havens in order to explore any appreciable distance into the abyss. Extremely high level players will have a much larger range they can travel before having to relocate lamps.
A player can return to their lamp at any time by channeling a return spell. This spell takes approximately 15-20 seconds to cast and can not be done in the presence of monsters or hostile players.
Two players may link their lamps together. This causes them to have a shared soul pool. Their lamp levels remain separate, but each time either of the players dies, the total number of souls for both players is diminished. As a bonus the players can choose which lamp to return to when casting the return spell.
Transporting ones lamp to a new haven is a risky proposition, for if a player should die when moving their lamp, they will respawn at the point of their death. This may lead to another death if the area is not cleared of threats. Too many deaths and the player becomes a statue and is returned to the portal area. However, when a player dies, they do not have to respawn right away. They can instead travel in spectral form in hopes of finding help. While in spectral form the player appears as a ghost, but is also limited by their lamps level and range. A player can "haunt" their lamp if they should die in a very remote location. Essentially, a player who is haunting their lamp, can be afk or offline. When another player approaches the proximity of the lamp, the dead players specter appears and requests that the new player take their lamp someplace safe.
If a player successfully returns a dead players lamp to a haven location, they will receive souls based on the distance the dead player was from any safe haven when they died. This ability to haunt ones own lamp and confer a bonus to another player has a 24 hour cooldown.
So... what does all that crap create? It creates a game where players must coordinate their efforts in order to push further and further into the darkness of the unknown. It creates a very flexible "class" system, but enforces the idea of roles and rewards collaboration. Nothing in this world is instanced. And nothing is set in stone, everything the players manage to create can wither and die if it is not maintained.
The game requires the player spend their soul energy to advance, and penalizes them by removing their soul energy if they should fail. This encourages players to spend their resources rather then lose them. However, dying with a full lamp is not nearly as damaging as dying with a near empty one. Players that rush to their deaths over and over, without much planning will end up getting "chiseled" pretty quick and suffer the most extreme consequences.
The hardest challenges found in both PVE and PVP will absolutely require groups. As a players true potential and power only shows up when they are in a well put together collaboration with other players. Organization is given the highest priority in terms of unlocking player power. This requires communication, which requires socializing.
Many of the goals and objectives in this game will not actually revolve around fighting. Enemies can be avoided and rewards can simply be waiting for a player to stumble across them. Also, establishing new havens and helping players through the darkness can confer bonuses on par with the most seasoned fighters.
This game would benefit greatly from procedural terrain generation and enemy placement. This ensures that every trip into the dark produces a fresh experience. I would like to see several "endless" regions that simply spiral deeper and deeper. Terrain manipulation could be something else to be explored with.
One thing I ponder when thinking about guilds, is that technically to re-socialise a game, it doesn't necessarily have to be happy things and all about sociable people. Perhaps being anti social could be considered social too? And by anti social I mean some people actually being enemies. I always loved the idea of guilds going to war with each other, but I just never see it happen. I think EQ had a command or something, but you just don't really see stuff like that. And I don't mean some dudebro 'guild' of 4 high school buddies fucking about with some other guild the same. What I mean is like the top 2 guilds on the server, big guilds with 50 people each and lots of high level powerful players. One day they step on the toes of the other big guild on the server, maybe fighting over a raid mob or something, and it all blows up and now they are at war - true war. Any player can PVP any player in the other guild. And their homes or guild halls could be attacked and raised. They can be trained or kill stolen or whatever, anything goes. War is war.
Maybe it goes on for ages like a stalemate or maybe it's a kind of 'cold war'. Or maybe one guild just ends up getting hammered and lose thousands of gold, loads of XP loss, their guild hall is in ruins, and they have to surrender or something. In other words, I would love to see an MMO that has an actual 'society' kind of like real life. Not just about chatting with groupmates. People are playing with real people and reputations matter, good people are actually valuable to you, they are real allies not just someone you talk to when you want a rez.
I guess Eve might work like that but I can never bring myself to play it.
EQ did actually have a thing in the game where you could have a "guild war." the guilds would be flagged PvP against each other for a determined period of time and you just had at it. they were actually really fun. there weren't any rewards or anything like that (not that i can remember anyway), but i would love to see a game reinstitute this idea and put in some incentives for doing it (maybe killed players can be looted or the winning guild given some kind of reward). would definitely add some flavor to a game and would be a hell of a lot more fun than having battlegrounds or designated areas.
EQ did actually have a thing in the game where you could have a "guild war." the guilds would be flagged PvP against each other for a determined period of time and you just had at it. they were actually really fun. there weren't any rewards or anything like that (not that i can remember anyway), but i would love to see a game reinstitute this idea and put in some incentives for doing it (maybe killed players can be looted or the winning guild given some kind of reward). would definitely add some flavor to a game and would be a hell of a lot more fun than having battlegrounds or designated areas.
It happened in the early days of EQ, at least on Fennin Ro. I was in DeVir way back then, which was a pretty strict roleplaying guild, and we used to have these multiple zone-spanning guild wars with I believe the Crimson Dragons. Still one of my fondest memories of the game. There was no reason to do it, no benefit, no token or badge or achievement to get out of doing it - we just did it because it was dark races vs good races. That was reason enough.
It happened in the early days of EQ, at least on Fennin Ro. I was in DeVir way back then, which was a pretty strict roleplaying guild, and we used to have these multiple zone-spanning guild wars with I believe the Crimson Dragons. Still one of my fondest memories of the game. There was no reason to do it, no benefit, no token or badge or achievement to get out of doing it - we just did it because it was dark races vs good races. That was reason enough.
We socialized on Solusek Ro very well. First we drove HoSS away due the fact they couldn't get raid mobs and then we let the euros have are leftovers out of spite.
Have enough stat diversity so no one can agree on which datamined items are BiS and everyone will socialize to argue which stats/abilities are the best
Just make the game so brutally hard that eveyone dies all the time, and everywhere, if they solo. Make grouping required for surviving, while joining an army is required for success. Presto chango, instant socialization.
Or you can turn the game into a preening fashion show where every girl and gay gamer runs around and jumps for joy for all the new shoes on the market, while complimenting each other on their outfits.
Combine both of those elements and your mmo can call itself a bank.
The problem is that these days with the ubiquity of "multi-player" video games most people aren't naturally drawn to a MMORPG primarily to socialize. Most come for the adventure first. What ends up happening is that socialization and camaraderie that results from adventuring ends up being far more important and lasting in the long run. Social relationships within MMOs are the glue that help to retain subscribers as well.
Another problem is that because of the success of World of Warcraft MMORPGs have travelled on an absurd tangent of achievement centric design to the exclusion of pretty much all else. Back in the old days, there was an inherent appreciation for Richard Bartle'sideathat virtual worlds and MUDs were a balanced composite ofadventurers, explorers, socializersandkillers. WoW destroyed that relationship which is why the MMO industry is in the sad predicament it is today.
I would look to Star Wars Galaxies for re-addition of social ascpects of MMOs. Non-combat classes that were social by nature ( entertainers, crafters ) add in town building guild warring etc to start. Have stores setup in the town you live in and you visit the towns...
Also, regarding combat you have to consider the following regarding grouping a) Grouping is the primary way to explore the world and b) Roles the classes play are important, diverse as possible ( i.e. Locked doors, Crowd control, Traps, etc etc etc )... give classes unique abilities to aid with dungeon-eering beyond DPS everything.
The problem is that these days with the ubiquity of "multi-player" video games most people aren't naturally drawn to a MMORPG primarily to socialize. Most come for the adventure first. What ends up happening is that socialization and camaraderie that results from adventuring ends up being far more important and lasting in the long run. Social relationships within MMOs are the glue that help to retain subscribers as well.
Yeah, this is a really good point and I think it's why you don't generally see large groups of people "choosing" to socialize in MMOs where it's not a requirement to do so. MMOs are great experiments in behavioral science. Skinner would fucking love them. People will follow the path of least resistance to get their nut. The socialization that occurred in early MMOs was a side effect of advancement requiring cooperation which also required a large time investment and that's where we begin to have problems.
Cybsled's point about rose colored glasses is important and fits in here. One of the things we often forget about our early MMO experiences is how much time we spent in game. In those early MMOs if you wanted to advance it required a large time investment to get in and stay in those xp groups. When you're spending that much time with people socialization has a much higher chance of occurring. I grouped in WoW, and while it was much easier and quicker to get into groups the socialization experience was nothing like earlier MMOs.
Cybsled made another good point about the genre evolving. It evolved to allow people who aren't willing to put in that large time investment to advance anyway. As so began the era of games made for casual gamers. Now we can hop online for a little while grab a level or two without having to go through the trouble of finding or putting a group together, then hop back off and go back to real life. I think many of us, being from the "old school" lament these changes because of their obvious negative effect on socialization and community, which we enjoyed in earlier MMOs, but there were also a lot of negative side effects of those early games too and for many of us a return to the older more time intensive model of MMO just isn't feasible no matter how much nostalgia we have for it.
So, I think the answer is that you're not going to be able to "re-socialize" MMOs, because socialization was a side effect of a style of gameplay that most people, (old school gamers included since we no longer live with our parents), don't have time for anymore. It can be a niche market for those willing to invest the time, but for the much larger post-WoW MMO market it's not going to happen.
EDIT: I think someone was joking when they mentioned facebook earlier in the thread, but I think the only possibility for MMOs bringing back socialization would be if they made it passive; something that could happen without you necessarily needing to be logged in. But even then it wouldn't be the same as it was in those early days.
Yeah, this is a really good point and I think it's why you don't generally see large groups of people "choosing" to socialize in MMOs where it's not a requirement to do so. MMOs are great experiments in behavioral science. Skinner would fucking love them. People will follow the path of least resistance to get their nut. The socialization that occurred in early MMOs was a side effect of advancement requiring cooperation which also required a large time investment and that's where we begin to have problems.
Cybsled's point about rose colored glasses is important and fits in here. One of the things we often forget about our early MMO experiences is how much time we spent in game. In those early MMOs if you wanted to advance it required a large time investment to get in and stay in those xp groups. When you're spending that much time with people socialization has a much higher chance of occurring. I grouped in WoW, and while it was much easier and quicker to get into groups the socialization experience was nothing like earlier MMOs.
Cybsled made another good point about the genre evolving. It evolved to allow people who aren't willing to put in that large time investment to advance anyway. As so began the era of games made for casual gamers. Now we can hop online for a little while grab a level or two without having to go through the trouble of finding or putting a group together, then hop back off and go back to real life. I think many of us, being from the "old school" lament these changes because of their obvious negative effect on socialization and community, which we enjoyed in earlier MMOs, but there were also a lot of negative side effects of those early games too and for many of us a return to the older more time intensive model of MMO just isn't feasible no matter how much nostalgia we have for it.
So, I think the answer is that you're not going to be able to "re-socialize" MMOs, because socialization was a side effect of a style of gameplay that most people, (old school gamers included since we no longer live with our parents), don't have time for anymore. It can be a niche market for those willing to invest the time, but for the much larger post-WoW MMO market it's not going to happen.
EDIT: I think someone was joking when they mentioned facebook earlier in the thread, but I think the only possibility for MMOs bringing back socialization would be if they made it passive; something that could happen without you necessarily needing to be logged in. But even then it wouldn't be the same as it was in those early days.
Completely disagree... The market is saturated with what you describe... and these are games that do not hold people long term.. Someone is going to realize this ( maybe Blizzard ) and grab that core RPG crowd that seemingly has no home these days...
Now, am i saying that old-school is going to return and kill the McMMos completely ? No. But i think it is pretty clear there is a market for a world experience with many attributes from the past and few from these "modern" titles.
time is the only factor that truly matters in a MMO. it should take time to do things. lots of time. if it doesn't, you get every shitty fucking game that has come out over the last 7+ years. no, we don't all have the same amount of free time that we did 10+ years ago, but fuck off, the world doesn't revolve around us. fact is, there are millions of people out there who do have several hours to play every day, and they are the ones the companies are making these games for, and they are the ones churning through the content in a week and a half and then quitting. you want to make another MMO that truly matters? make another one that takes a long time to get shit done.
I'm not sure that Time should be the only factor. See, here's the thing. Those 20 minute intervals where we sat around in Lguk or KC or Seb waiting on spawns and talking about tv/games/life in general? Still exist. Just that they take place in a) voicechat, b) facebook/social media, or c) guildchat/chat channels (and guilds and the dynamic associated with them are probably the greatest issue with socialization in games today).
Really hate to say it, but this is what happened in EQ that a lot of us probably remember but some (the nostalgia crew) gloss over when we played:
Early levels, unless we had RL/online friends in established guilds, were loads of random groups with random folk doing low level content. Then we hit mid level, and if we weren't in an established guild or friends with people in established guilds, we joined newb guilds that did low/mid level shit. With the occasional high level guy that would randomly bestow shit on us. But our group of people we played with had diminished. Now we were more aware of which guilds had good players and which did not, so we would start trying to group primarily with the good players as much as possible, thinning out our options for socialization with people outside our circles. Fast forward to endgame, where just about everyone was in one of the "good" guilds or they were jerkholes that nobody played with. Then it starts coming down to which people are on a similar tier of progression/higher so that we aren't being weighed down when doing content by newblets or people that aren't very good at their class.
Because, if they were good, they would be in one of the big guilds that were on a similar level of progression, right? Further limiting our socialization options outside of our individual circles.
Then we moved to other games, but we brought that insular thought-process with us. Randoms were the -last- option, not the first. And being jaded about the average player (since we were in high end guilds with mostly good to great players or at least super well geared) puts you into the position where in newer games, we skip the first stage and most of the second these days. Hell, when I moved to WoW, I went right to the same mentality I had at the high end of EQ. I found out which other guilds were good on Medivh (Specifically: Ascent) and primarily grouped with those guys if people in my own guild weren't available (Vindication.) And the vast majority of other people in the guild did the same. No guild groups available? Solo activity!
You know who created the socialization aspect in modern mmos? We did. The players. I am an outlier in that I would check friends, -then- guild, and then I'd just grab whatever warm body and throw it at shit till it worked. Did it in EQ, and in FFXI (which was holy fucknoodles harder to do than any other game. God that shit was stupid at times) and in every other game. I'm the guy that starts killing quest mobs in an area and invites every asshat in range who might be swinging at them so we can all get credit and move the fuck on. I'm the guy that would grab 5 DPS (as an SK) at Seb entrance and then start fear kiting shit and tap tanking and get -some- xp/drops instead of just sitting around waiting for the trinity to show up. But again, I'm an outlier in this community. Which is why I don't believe socialization is dead.
We, as a gaming era, took our high end insular attitude and applied it to every other game, creating the illusion that socialization is dead. When in reality, it's just dead for us.
