Lost Ark Online

Raes said:

It's not the "difficulty" of the raids, I enjoy difficult content. It's the stupid crazy jump-through-these-hoops mechanics, or raidwipe. Which they specifically admit in those notes.

"Wants to develop events/content that is geared towards fun and less hardcore than just endgame raids introducing crazy new mechanic after new mechanic."

Did you watch that vid I linked? Or vids of any of the LA endgame raids? I want content where the challenge/difficulty is overcome by playing my class well, not doing this on rails paint by numbers bullshit, where the whole group gets punished if any one person is .5 seconds off on their timing. It's just lazy design, "we don't know how to make this more challenging than the last raid, so we'll just add these stupid mechanics". And since every new raid must outdo the last one, the mechanics just get more and more retarded.

And please, skip the lecturing on game design. It makes my eyes roll so hard I can barely read your post. In addition, there's literally nothing you can say on that topic that I don't already know, or haven't already heard FROM YOU, and others on this board. MMO design threads and derails happen quite frequently here, ffs. And I'm not interested in having a discussion about general game design theories, I'm in the LA thread to talk about LA specifically.

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This pretty much sums up how I already feel, and I'm only GS 1080? Not even close to end game. I can imagine how it will get later.

Raes is spot on with the .5 seconds. The fuckin crazy dodging. The lack of tells etc. It's all lazy design.

I also now see what Raes is saying with the game built around the cash shop. For those that care about power progression, you either cough up dough, or have 3 alts ready to farm. I honestly thought Raes was exaggerating. But he may have underestimated! I have zero desire to level 3 alts.

I'm also in the same mindset, I don't care about playing some silly side game. Figure out some better mechanics for these fights, instead of me running around dodging for half these fights. Get some progressive gauntlet modes in there. ANYTHING but DDR, where if you're not Fred Astaire you lose.

Brahma said:

This pretty much sums up how I already feel, and I'm only GS 1080? Not even close to end game. I can imagine how it will get later.

Raes is spot on with the .5 seconds. The fuckin crazy dodging. The lack of tells etc. It's all lazy design.

I also now see what Raes is saying with the game built around the cash shop. For those that care about power progression, you either cough up dough, or have 3 alts ready to farm. I honestly thought Raes was exaggerating. But he may have underestimated! I have zero desire to level 3 alts.

I'm also in the same mindset, I don't care about playing some silly side game. Figure out some better mechanics for these fights, instead of me running around dodging for half these fights. Get some progressive gauntlet modes in there. ANYTHING but DDR, where if you're not Fred Astaire you lose.

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It actually gets worse. Sounds like you're talking mostly about Guardian raids. The no tells/no hp bar/super fast attacks (with high ping you have to learn their moves and kinda dodge preemptively). Those do get worse, and the last boss of each tier will start having one shot abilities and stupid mechanics to avoid them. And some Guardians will have like fire vomit they drop all over the ground that burns forever until the whole screen is burning, and if you step in it, you start to burn. But, the weekly raids are worse. One of the simpler bosses, at a certain hp threshold, he throws out 4 floating swords that follow you and the others around. You have to avoid them, and one at a time, 1 person touches a sword, then attacks the boss, and there's like a 2 sec CD before the next person can touch a sword and then attack. If anyone touches a sword before the CD is up, it's a wipe. I think there's another thing that causes a wipe, like waiting too long or something, it's hard to remember. So, after 5 wipes, everyone manages to do it correctly. And then at another hp threshold, the same mechanic, again. Whoops, fail, wipe, go back to start.

The last few raids they've added are ridiculous, like the one I linked above.

My alt setup is mainly for efficiency. The alts on my main account are just the classes I like. My 4 alt accounts, I have 3 max (catchup) alts each, so that I can get the weekly epona done in 2 days. When I need extra gold I fish on them, but it's so fucking boring I have to have something to watch on my second monitor or I'll fall asleep. The only exception to that is WoT, which is the opposite. If the raids weren't so annoying, I could make tons of gold raiding with the alts on my main account, but looks like they're nerfing that anyway.

Neranja said:

So you don't want what we'd call the "dance" fights, even when that is the basic premise of the game, and how the designers aim for difficulty in their game? How would you design difficulty in such a game, except you are not allowed to make it an "numbers only" game where players need at least this much of that to succeed, so it has to involve skill checks?


Well, for starters this is a public forum, so you don't need to read or reply to my posts. What a novel idea!

But at the same time please do tell me why you went into the game so hard (4 alt accounts, LOL WTF) *knowing* what the endgame in it looked like. The whole "if only they could change the end game to what I specifically like as difficulty in a game" tells me you like at least some aspect of it, e.g. the leveling, but not the end part.

No shame in that, but expecting game designers to change their philosophy on game design, especially on a successful game, does feel a bit entitled. And that's why I talked about game design here, even if your eyes fall out.

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That wasn't the premise of the fucking game, you silly dimwit. I already told you I've played the game for 2 years, over several iterations. They've made HUGE, SWEEPING changes to the game several times, the most notable being the Season 2 update. The raids don't require skill, they require memorization of mechanics from watching a fucking video.

At launch, the only raids were Guardian Raids and they had an increasing difficulty curve that didn't involve dumb mechanics.

I didn't go into the game hard, I had zero alt accounts until the Season 2 update, when they gave away a free character boost. So, made 4 accounts, each with a free boosted character. Then, after Scout released, I enjoyed playing it enough that I leveled 1 on each alt account. Then recently they had an event with another free boost, so I added a third alt to each account. Doing the 18 dailies and 3 weeklies (for the epona chest gold reward) takes about 15 minutes per account per day, 2 days per week. If I fish it's an extra 30 minutes per account, but I rarely do that.

I've said many times, I enjoy the class designs (mostly) and the combat. That's about it. It's not just about what *I* like or want. I am not a fucking unique snowflake, my viewpoint represents a percentage of players, just like yours does. If the game was perfect they wouldn't keep making huge changes, or keep trying to come up with new ideas. While adding a few stupid minigames might please a small percentage of players it's not going to even begin to address the actual flaws in the game.

I never said anything about wanting them to change the endgame. I want them to offer optional methods of advancement other than their (IMO) shitty fucking raids.

PS The devs don't give a fuck about endgame difficulty, except where it relates to pushing people to spend money to power through it, or skip it. That's their "philosophy on game design."

Why don't we continue this discussion when you've actually played the game for a few months. Cause right now, you're just talking out of your ass and have no idea how stupid you sound.

Raes said:

The raids don't require skill

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I don't want to get tangled up in the cat fight, but what is skill in "modern" MMOs? Honest question, since I've not cared for that scene for a decade. Resource management, reaction times, encounter knowledge?

Mr Creed said:

I don't want to get tangled up in the cat fight, but what is skill in "modern" MMOs? Honest question, since I've not cared for that scene for a decade. Resource management, reaction times, encounter knowledge?

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I think players deem skill as " How fast can you type accurately". That is all it is. Are you a good secretary? The faster your reaction speed is, the better you are at responding to situations.

If they made technology that directly connected to a players brain in response, I would be much better at gaming. I just suck at typing on a keyboard.

Mr Creed said:

I don't want to get tangled up in the cat fight, but what is skill in "modern" MMOs? Honest question, since I've not cared for that scene for a decade. Resource management, reaction times, encounter knowledge?

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In Lost Ark it is reaction time and encounter knowledge for the most part. The reaction times are silly. The encounter knowledge helps, but there are fights where there are times there is nothing you can do and take substantial damage. Resource management plays into the whole cash shop/alt/RNG piece and even to a degree the encounters if you really want to get really anal.

Mr Creed said:

I don't want to get tangled up in the cat fight, but what is skill in "modern" MMOs? Honest question, since I've not cared for that scene for a decade. Resource management, reaction times, encounter knowledge?

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Well, it varies depending on the game/activity, but what I consider skill doesn't involve just being able to jump through numbered hoops. I can read and execute the instructions on a box of mac and cheese perfectly, that doesn't mean I'm a skilled chef. For me, skill is more about knowing your class and being able to react on the fly, knowing when to use the right skills, etc. Like, basically how you play the entire game except for the raids. But, pretty much everything except the raids is also faceroll easy, which is another problem.

The things you listed are more about competency than skill, IMO.

Brahma said:

Resource management plays into the whole cash shop/alt/RNG piece and even to a degree the encounters if you really want to get really anal.

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That wasn't so much about gold/shards/whatever for upgrades, but mana management and things like that. Though I suppose that's something that is largely a thing of the past.

Neranja said:

Ah, nice, opening with insults. The Ossoi "asshat of the year" way of arguing. I'll try to break it down in simple terms for you then:

1. They had a not so great launch
2. They made sweeping changes to the endgame
3. They started growing rapidly, especially after July 2021

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I said "that wasn't the premise" not "that isn't." And the raids you're so in love with are the tiniest part of the changes they made to the game in the big Season 2 update. The vast majority of changes had to do with streamlining, accessibility, QoL, removing grinds, and dropping those dumb ass, boring, minigames. You'd know this basic shit if you, ya know, actually had played the game at launch.

Opening with insults? (technically, it wasn't an insult, it was an observation) We're mid-discussion. You were the snobby cunt who "opened" with "have you read Bartle and Koster??" Just because you attempt to veil your insults because you think you're clever, doesn't mean they don't exist. It's obvious to me you're not interested in a real discussion, only in trying to feel smart by constant desperate attempts to make others look dumb. You're failing. Your "one-size-fits-all" game design philosophy is laughable.

Raes said:

Well, it varies depending on the game/activity, but what I consider skill doesn't involve just being able to jump through numbered hoops. I can read and execute the instructions on a box of mac and cheese perfectly, that doesn't mean I'm a skilled chef. For me, skill is more about knowing your class and being able to react on the fly, knowing when to use the right skills, etc. Like, basically how you play the entire game except for the raids. But, pretty much everything except the raids is also faceroll easy, which is another problem.

The things you listed are more about competency than skill, IMO.

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Being able to know a plan and execute on a plan are 2 different things. It is rarely something as simple as “do these 20 steps in order”. It is doing 20 steps in order while executing your class skills, etc

In theory, reacting on the fly is only needed when someone else fucks up

Cybsled said:

Being able to know a plan and execute on a plan are 2 different things. It is rarely something as simple as “do these 20 steps in order”. It is doing 20 steps in order while executing your class skills, etc

In theory, reacting on the fly is only needed when someone else fucks up

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Except, when someone else fucks up 1 thing it wipes the whole group/raid. It gets really irritating doing those 20 steps perfectly and wiping a dozen times because of someone else, and then finally everyone gets it right and you fuck it up this time, because you're bored and irritated and you misclicked one time.

Watch that raid video I linked. Does that look fun to you? To each his own if you do. It just looks annoying to me.

Step 1, grind through this boring leveling. Step 2, grind gold/mats to upgrade your gear. Step 3, Go do this raid where your gear/skill at playing your class doesn't matter at all if you (or anyone else) miss this one hoop.

Trying to do raids or pvp with such high pings sounds like a nightmare. Glad I didn't get too heavy into it, just played RU to see if I liked the game.

The game itself wasn’t fun for me, so the raid didn’t look fun. I just hate isometric click move combat

Cybsled said:

The game itself wasn’t fun for me, so the raid didn’t look fun. I just hate isometric click move combat

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I love isometric, click-to-move style gameplay. Hell, it's why I love ARPGs so much and they tend to be one of my favorite genres. Problem is, they do not lend themselves well to, "LOL ONE SHOT!" style mechanics, ESPECIALLY when you have 300 different particle style effects going off at once. The DDR shit inside a 3D world like FFXIV, WoW, EQ, etc. is one thing. In an iso world? It's fuckin' full blown AIDS.

Ya, I could see that being an issue, especially if the controls get wonky in terms of where you are facing

Cybsled said:

The game itself wasn’t fun for me, so the raid didn’t look fun. I just hate isometric click move combat

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That sure does remove the chance to play a lot of games. No RTS, no ARPGs, no MOBAs.

I do think they should just allow people to bind w/e they want to movement. I'd much rather still have wasd to move instead of clicking. Mainly reactions, clicking is slower. Especially if your mouse is over the target to aim your abilities and suddenly you need to move away from the boss.

Cinge said:

I do think they should just allow people to bind w/e they want to movement. I'd much rather still have wasd to move instead of clicking. Mainly reactions, clicking is slower. Especially if your mouse is over the target to aim your abilities and suddenly you need to move away from the boss.

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Clicking is not necessary, you should be holding LMB. You move/attack in the direction of your cursor. And if you're trying to avoid a boss ability you usually aren't just running, you are using dash or an ability with movement.

Cybsled said:

The game itself wasn’t fun for me, so the raid didn’t look fun. I just hate isometric click move combat

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Kinda funny when you think about it. Since both the first Western (UO) and Korean (Lineage) MMOs were isometric.

(To the peanut gallery: No, I don't want to argue about multiplayer rpgs that released earlier. Thanks, though.)


Edit: Brahma There's a free Trision Pass (boost) reward for the current event. Just have to complete the last quest in Payton, then go to the website and claim the item, then into your inventory on the website to transfer it to you in game. In case you wanted to use it on your Sorc. LOST ARK — официальный сайт Action-MMORPG

In fact, you might have 2 available if you haven't claimed the other one (for completing the new tutorial). Once claimed you have 7 days to use them before they expire.