Man of Steel

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Void

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Well, I'm eager to hear what Heylel has to say, but in the meantime I'll give it a shot. This is sort of tough for me to explain because I wasn't much of a fan of Superman in the comics (remember though, my "comic time" was before a lot of you were born) because I was always a Marvel guy. X-Men, Wolverine, etc. were huge in my day, although I always fucking hated Wolverine in comics (love him in the movies though). Back when I was reading as a kid there were times when they drastically raised Superman's power levels too, like the scene people often show where he is pulling a line of planets with a chain. So it was pretty easy to just ignore him and say he was boring. Which he was a lot of the time, don't get me wrong.

Along with that, there are a bunch of things I couldn't stand about him, kryptonite being the most obvious. One minute he's crippled from a little rock, the next he's lifting a mountain of it (well, that's the movie, but you get the point). They invented all kinds of different colors of kryptonite to make him do whatever they wanted. Make him powerless? One color. Need him to fall in love with some evil chick? Invent another color. Make him batshit crazy and destroy everything? Pick another color. It was downright ridiculous, and I don't think anyone really likes that aspect. And you'd think that either every single criminal would pick up a chunk of kryptonite to carry around, or some of the other heroes would help a brother out and scoop that shit up to get it off the street.

There are other things to complain about, like the insanity of all his powers (being able to hear everything on the planet at once? give me a break) but it is when I started truly thinking about him compared to other heroes that it started to sink in. The Batman quote is really the perfect summation, but I'll try to go beyond that. It might not make sense to anyone but me, but I'll try.

We can all pretty much understand Wolverine though, right? Who hasn't wanted to wreck some motherfuckers at various times? Even Spider-Man (the comic version, not the movies), I can understand showing off for the girl I like at school, jumping off buildings because I know I can web my way to safety, cracking jokes at common thugs, etc. Shit, even Thor. Similar to Superman in many respects, but he lets his temper get the better of him all the time, destroys stuff he shouldn't, even gets humiliated or tricked at times. We can all relate, because that's what one of us might do if given those powers.

I'm going to speak in generalities now; I'm sure there are instances that will contradict what I say, but given the number of years he's been written, and the number of different people writing him, there is bound to be pretty much everything somewhere in there. I certainly haven't read all of the stuff he's been in, but I'm talking about the "mythos" of Superman so to speak, and not specific examples.

Superman doesn't do those things I mentioned above, like lose his temper, use his powers to impress his girlfriend, etc. (again, in general, yeah obviously he's given Lois/Lana/whomever rides, but it isn't quite the same). He's that inner "good person" that most of us hope they would be if given that sort of power, but absolutely none of us could be. I'm talking about your normal everyday decent person, not your criminal, sociopath, Tyen, etc. Clearly there are some people that would crave that sort of power to do nothing but selfish acts regardless of the harm to others. But your normal person that wouldn't go on a rape spree even if they could get away with it, that's who I'm talking about. They'd still give in somehow, no matter how small. Superman doesn't give in, and even more, he constantly worries that he will. But when it is time to act, he acts with utter certainty that he is doing the right thing. When he refuses to kill someone, no matter how much harm or pain they have caused him or others, he knows with absolute certainty that he is doing the right thing. He knows that if he gave in and just killed Lex Luthor, no matter how much future suffering he might avert by doing so, he'll have forever lost a part of what makes him truly "super." So it is not even an option for him.

But very, very rarely, as someone mentioned above, there are those times when you see that he's considering it. You see that he's just been holding back this whole time because he fears what havoc he would wreak if he didn't restrain himself. Sort of like in that classic scene where Iron Man pisses off Thor and Thor finally lets lose and cracks Iron Man's armor. It's like, you've finally stepped up to the big leagues, and you have no idea the size of the puddle of shit you're about to step into. Except that, in my mind at least (I know I'll get arguments about power levels), Superman's next level would be up around extinction level event size, not just fuck up Iron Man level. Superman unleashed would crush Iron Man like a coke can and think nothing of it. Those are the times when Superman is truly awesome, even though you know he's not going to do it. They tried to give us a little dose of that in some of the movies, like turning back time or lifting a mountain of kryptonite. They don't come across very well on screen though. But when you can sense that he's on the edge of really cutting loose...and then he still reigns it in...that's when you truly understand Superman. He could literally crack the earth if people pissed him off enough. He could knock it from its orbit and kill everyone. Hell, he could fly at super-speed and just smash every single motherfucker on the planet if he were feeling particularly vindictive.

But he doesn't. He doesn't even think about it. Ever. He thinks about how he has to lead by example, always, never slipping even once. If some criminal is shooting him with kryptonite bullets, Superman doesn't simply fly out of range and incinerate him with his heat vision. If anything he'd destroy the gun and then capture the guy, even though blanketing the area in rays of laser death would be much easier. Because there is always a way for him to win without resorting to those tactics. He would hate himself if he ever stooped to something like that. Like I said, he could just kill Lex Luthor because he knows he is just going to escape and come up with more evil plans, but there is always that tiny, tiny hope that this time Lex has learned his lesson, and what right does Superman have to take that choice away from Lex?

Some people compare him to Jesus, and I get that, but for me it isn't even remotely the same thing. The whole "do what is right, no matter how easy the other paths are" is a pretty common element in a lot of heroic figures, not just Jesus. Unless you buy into the whole smiting from heaven stuff, Jesus wasn't constantly making the choice not to kill people, or not to break into banks and steal all the money and build himself a Super-Mansion of gold staffed with hot bitches and servants that feared for their very lives. Superman can do all that stuff, easily. Superman could go on TV like Zod did and tell everyone in the world they now have to worship him as their King, and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do. But he never, ever does it. Or even thinks it for that matter.

I will also admit that I have a further interest in that I've had an idea for a novel in my head for decades now that centers around someone very like Superman in a lot of ways, and that constant struggle to limit yourself is a central theme that I keep having difficulties dealing with. I try to picture myself with that power. I can't do it, because I know I'd stray. If you could hear every single cry for help, maybe not in the world but let's say just 100 miles, could you do what he does? Could you speed here and there, tirelessly, never taking a moment for yourself to catch your favorite TV show, watch your football team (in person of course), or even spend time with loved ones? Not to mention having to hide the fact that you even have loved ones for fear that someone would find out and threaten to harm them. And when they inevitably do threaten them, how do you not simply obliterate them with your super-speed or heat vision to make sure your loved ones are safe?

I couldn't do all of those things, and I don't think any living human ever could. Put yourself in that position and truly think about it. What would you do if you knew hundreds of people needed your help right now? Or if you knew that some guy had a gun to your mom's head and was going to kill her unless you ate a kryptonite bullet. Could you avoid smashing him into bloody chunks at the speed of light? Whatever the scenario, somewhere all of us would falter. Yet Superman doesn't falter, ever, and thus we have a model to strive after, even though we know we can never attain it.

Hopefully that makes a little bit of sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't impress anyone but me one bit. Still, it is how I view Superman, and why he's pretty much my "favorite" superhero even though I typically enjoy reading and watching others far more. No one really ever does him right, so he'll never be as popular on the big screen or 99% of comics, even to me, as someone like Iron Man might be.

Finally, in case you've never seen this, you should watch this fantastic trailer for the DC game that came out awhile ago. This is about the closest representation of "pissed off" Superman I've ever seen, and it is on the verge of being awesome if his part had been extended longer. I get chills just watching it. I'd give my left nut to see 3 hours of this.

 

Void

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The comicbook Invincible is basically Superman gone bad, you should check it out.
I keep hearing that and telling myself I should. Too many real books I want to read at the moment, but I should definitely make the time, I know.
 

Arakkis

N00b
690
11
Awesome post.
Vvoid outlined it perfectly and frankly that essay should be added to the wiki for Superman or something. The character has so much depth, but all we get most of the time is Superboyscout punching some bad guy or saving someone in the nick of time. Amazing stories remain to be told like what led to his set of morals. The Justice League cartoon did a great job of showing what would actually put Superman over the edge and the consequences of it with the Justice Lords story arc. For that matter, so did Red Son, a must read for anyone wanting a Superman story with some depth.

Another piece of commentary on humanity is Clark Kent. When Superman is his secret identity he plays a bumbling awkward weak coward. Is this really what he thinks about humans, or is there another reason a god would live as a weakling?
 

Kinkle_sl

shitlord
163
1
I mentioned this earlier, but after that post, here's a recent example of one of those "almost" moments:





Also:
(can skip to around 3:00)
 

Salshun_sl

shitlord
1,003
0
Is it really evil if you do compromise for those you love if they've been violently wronged? If you refuse, it shows your moral compass was stronger than your love for them, and then what is the fucking point of loving them in the first place? You're essentially saying "I love you as long as I don't have to change", and what kind of shit is that? If Superman's intent is truly making the world a better place, then he has to make the call when you being around anymore goes against that. I gave you 5 chances, you're still a fuck-up, time to die.

Then again, this also gets into saving individuals or saving the world eternal. This is why I really don't like Superman, his morality seems to fly in the face of the old adage "break some eggs to make an omelet". You cannot believe that everyone is capable of achieving redemption but on the other hand label people as "evil". It doesn't work, at all. It's no better than tolerating bad children vs. having mortal enemies, both cannot work. He needs to take out the trash for a better Earth, or this constant struggle will never end while he fucks around shooting for a balance that is unachievable.

Save the people worth saving, worth redemption, but remove the people that will prevent the good and savable from progressing. At this point, it seems like he's playing a fucking game with us, and is zero help.

We don't need self-limiting heroes.
 

Caliane

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Well, I'm eager to hear what Heylel has to say, but in the meantime I'll give it a shot. This is sort of tough for me to explain because I wasn't much of a fan of Superman in the comics (remember though, my "comic time" was before a lot of you were born) because I was always a Marvel guy. X-Men, Wolverine, etc. were huge in my day, although I always fucking hated Wolverine in comics (love him in the movies though). Back when I was reading as a kid there were times when they drastically raised Superman's power levels too, like the scene people often show where he is pulling a line of planets with a chain. So it was pretty easy to just ignore him and say he was boring. Which he was a lot of the time, don't get me wrong.

Along with that, there are a bunch of things I couldn't stand about him, kryptonite being the most obvious. One minute he's crippled from a little rock, the next he's lifting a mountain of it (well, that's the movie, but you get the point). They invented all kinds of different colors of kryptonite to make him do whatever they wanted. Make him powerless? One color. Need him to fall in love with some evil chick? Invent another color. Make him batshit crazy and destroy everything? Pick another color. It was downright ridiculous, and I don't think anyone really likes that aspect. And you'd think that either every single criminal would pick up a chunk of kryptonite to carry around, or some of the other heroes would help a brother out and scoop that shit up to get it off the street.

There are other things to complain about, like the insanity of all his powers (being able to hear everything on the planet at once? give me a break) but it is when I started truly thinking about him compared to other heroes that it started to sink in. The Batman quote is really the perfect summation, but I'll try to go beyond that. It might not make sense to anyone but me, but I'll try.

We can all pretty much understand Wolverine though, right? Who hasn't wanted to wreck some motherfuckers at various times? Even Spider-Man (the comic version, not the movies), I can understand showing off for the girl I like at school, jumping off buildings because I know I can web my way to safety, cracking jokes at common thugs, etc. Shit, even Thor. Similar to Superman in many respects, but he lets his temper get the better of him all the time, destroys stuff he shouldn't, even gets humiliated or tricked at times. We can all relate, because that's what one of us might do if given those powers.

I'm going to speak in generalities now; I'm sure there are instances that will contradict what I say, but given the number of years he's been written, and the number of different people writing him, there is bound to be pretty much everything somewhere in there. I certainly haven't read all of the stuff he's been in, but I'm talking about the "mythos" of Superman so to speak, and not specific examples.

Superman doesn't do those things I mentioned above, like lose his temper, use his powers to impress his girlfriend, etc. (again, in general, yeah obviously he's given Lois/Lana/whomever rides, but it isn't quite the same). He's that inner "good person" that most of us hope they would be if given that sort of power, but absolutely none of us could be. I'm talking about your normal everyday decent person, not your criminal, sociopath, Tyen, etc. Clearly there are some people that would crave that sort of power to do nothing but selfish acts regardless of the harm to others. But your normal person that wouldn't go on a rape spree even if they could get away with it, that's who I'm talking about. They'd still give in somehow, no matter how small. Superman doesn't give in, and even more, he constantly worries that he will. But when it is time to act, he acts with utter certainty that he is doing the right thing. When he refuses to kill someone, no matter how much harm or pain they have caused him or others, he knows with absolute certainty that he is doing the right thing. He knows that if he gave in and just killed Lex Luthor, no matter how much future suffering he might avert by doing so, he'll have forever lost a part of what makes him truly "super." So it is not even an option for him.

But very, very rarely, as someone mentioned above, there are those times when you see that he's considering it. You see that he's just been holding back this whole time because he fears what havoc he would wreak if he didn't restrain himself. Sort of like in that classic scene where Iron Man pisses off Thor and Thor finally lets lose and cracks Iron Man's armor. It's like, you've finally stepped up to the big leagues, and you have no idea the size of the puddle of shit you're about to step into. Except that, in my mind at least (I know I'll get arguments about power levels), Superman's next level would be up around extinction level event size, not just fuck up Iron Man level. Superman unleashed would crush Iron Man like a coke can and think nothing of it. Those are the times when Superman is truly awesome, even though you know he's not going to do it. They tried to give us a little dose of that in some of the movies, like turning back time or lifting a mountain of kryptonite. They don't come across very well on screen though. But when you can sense that he's on the edge of really cutting loose...and then he still reigns it in...that's when you truly understand Superman. He could literally crack the earth if people pissed him off enough. He could knock it from its orbit and kill everyone. Hell, he could fly at super-speed and just smash every single motherfucker on the planet if he were feeling particularly vindictive.

But he doesn't. He doesn't even think about it. Ever. He thinks about how he has to lead by example, always, never slipping even once. If some criminal is shooting him with kryptonite bullets, Superman doesn't simply fly out of range and incinerate him with his heat vision. If anything he'd destroy the gun and then capture the guy, even though blanketing the area in rays of laser death would be much easier. Because there is always a way for him to win without resorting to those tactics. He would hate himself if he ever stooped to something like that. Like I said, he could just kill Lex Luthor because he knows he is just going to escape and come up with more evil plans, but there is always that tiny, tiny hope that this time Lex has learned his lesson, and what right does Superman have to take that choice away from Lex?

Some people compare him to Jesus, and I get that, but for me it isn't even remotely the same thing. The whole "do what is right, no matter how easy the other paths are" is a pretty common element in a lot of heroic figures, not just Jesus. Unless you buy into the whole smiting from heaven stuff, Jesus wasn't constantly making the choice not to kill people, or not to break into banks and steal all the money and build himself a Super-Mansion of gold staffed with hot bitches and servants that feared for their very lives. Superman can do all that stuff, easily. Superman could go on TV like Zod did and tell everyone in the world they now have to worship him as their King, and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do. But he never, ever does it. Or even thinks it for that matter.

I will also admit that I have a further interest in that I've had an idea for a novel in my head for decades now that centers around someone very like Superman in a lot of ways, and that constant struggle to limit yourself is a central theme that I keep having difficulties dealing with. I try to picture myself with that power. I can't do it, because I know I'd stray. If you could hear every single cry for help, maybe not in the world but let's say just 100 miles, could you do what he does? Could you speed here and there, tirelessly, never taking a moment for yourself to catch your favorite TV show, watch your football team (in person of course), or even spend time with loved ones? Not to mention having to hide the fact that you even have loved ones for fear that someone would find out and threaten to harm them. And when they inevitably do threaten them, how do you not simply obliterate them with your super-speed or heat vision to make sure your loved ones are safe?

I couldn't do all of those things, and I don't think any living human ever could. Put yourself in that position and truly think about it. What would you do if you knew hundreds of people needed your help right now? Or if you knew that some guy had a gun to your mom's head and was going to kill her unless you ate a kryptonite bullet. Could you avoid smashing him into bloody chunks at the speed of light? Whatever the scenario, somewhere all of us would falter. Yet Superman doesn't falter, ever, and thus we have a model to strive after, even though we know we can never attain it.

Hopefully that makes a little bit of sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't impress anyone but me one bit. Still, it is how I view Superman, and why he's pretty much my "favorite" superhero even though I typically enjoy reading and watching others far more. No one really ever does him right, so he'll never be as popular on the big screen or 99% of comics, even to me, as someone like Iron Man might be.

Finally, in case you've never seen this, you should watch this fantastic trailer for the DC game that came out awhile ago. This is about the closest representation of "pissed off" Superman I've ever seen, and it is on the verge of being awesome if his part had been extended longer. I get chills just watching it. I'd give my left nut to see 3 hours of this.

I love All-Star. I really nails all the points.

There is always a way.
Lex is in jail taunting him. And Clark saves Lex's life repeatedly without Lex even noticing.
Superman is dying, and he stands there and still asks Lex to use his intelligence to help, while Lex spits in his face.
Regan, and you are stronger then you think you are.
He is a guy with the power of a god. And its his humanity that makes him Super.

Superman is more of an idea, then a persistent character. He does not work well in ongoings. By far the best superman stories are one shots. and what if, etc.


Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow? is Alan moores silver age send off. It ends Superman's story right before the Crisis on Infinite Earths reboots.
And Superman breaks his no killing rule.

Superman:grounded. marks the ending of the Superman's story pre-Nu52 reboot. Started by straczynski. It was god awful at the start. He quit/was fired. and Chris Roberson finished it. kindof masterfully.


Invincible is not a Superman allegory at all. Still good.
There are a few though.
Irredeemable. Is Superman gone bad.
Supreme
superior (50% supe, 50% Captain Marvel)

Superman Red Son is a bit of both. (as in bad, and redeemed.)
 

Caliane

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no one is beyond redemption, born evil, etc. Its choice born of culture and upbringing, greed, medical problem, and/or desperation.
If you had the power of immortality, etc, there is no reason to murder people to solve problems.

Cops, soldiers? their lives are in danger, they have the right, and obligation to save themselves and others as best they can.
When you are faster then the speed of light, then you don't have to.
You can afford to restrain and try to help them.

Unless that guys is a literal god of Tyranny. well then he are part of the fabric of the multiverse, and dying will undo reality. You'd have to have some kindof miracle machine to wish for a happy ending.
 

Devlin

Golden Squire
832
9
Invincible is not a Superman allegory at all. Still good.
There are a few though.
Irredeemable. Is Superman gone bad.
Supreme
superior (50% supe, 50% Captain Marvel)

Superman Red Son is a bit of both.
how is Omni-Man not supposed to be a dark version of Superman?

When the story starts he's Superman.
 

Grimmlokk

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how is Omni-Man not supposed to be a dark version of Superman?

When the story starts he's Superman.
I get where you are coming from, but Nolan leaves Earth pretty early on then it's all about Mark. Irredeemable is a way better example of "Superman gone bad".
 

Caliane

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ah yeah. omni-man is I guess. Invincible isn't though. But yeah, they totally are Kryptonians/saiyans.
 

Void

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Is it really evil if you do compromise for those you love if they've been violently wronged? If you refuse, it shows your moral compass was stronger than your love for them, and then what is the fucking point of loving them in the first place? You're essentially saying "I love you as long as I don't have to change", and what kind of shit is that? If Superman's intent is truly making the world a better place, then he has to make the call when you being around anymore goes against that. I gave you 5 chances, you're still a fuck-up, time to die.

Then again, this also gets into saving individuals or saving the world eternal. This is why I really don't like Superman, his morality seems to fly in the face of the old adage "break some eggs to make an omelet". You cannot believe that everyone is capable of achieving redemption but on the other hand label people as "evil". It doesn't work, at all. It's no better than tolerating bad children vs. having mortal enemies, both cannot work. He needs to take out the trash for a better Earth, or this constant struggle will never end while he fucks around shooting for a balance that is unachievable.

Save the people worth saving, worth redemption, but remove the people that will prevent the good and savable from progressing. At this point, it seems like he's playing a fucking game with us, and is zero help.

We don't need self-limiting heroes.
You can always second-guess someone with impossible standards like that, and obviously in reality he wouldn't work. But in the comics, there is ALWAYS a way that Superman could have achieved the same goal without arbitrarily killing someone. As shown in those clips that Kinkle posted, when it looked like Superman had finally broken and started killing, people were shocked and appalled. The people he was doing it to definitely deserved it, no doubt, but the people rooting for Superman were horrified because they had come to expect something better from him. It is that expectation for better that sets Superman apart from every other hero.

That's the dichotomy he is forced to live with, and that is why he is "something more." He doesn't stoop to the easy way if it endangers someone else in any way, and he still wins. Because he's Superman. You can't say that his moral compass is stronger than his love, because he can do both. Sure it is impossible in real life, but in the context of a comic book...that's why he's Superman.

Also, you seem to think that he is here to make the world a better place all by himself. That isn't what he's about at all. What good would a world be that consisted of only people he feels are worth living? Then he'd be a dictator/god, regardless of good intentions or not. He is quite literally capable of doing what you ask, saving the worthy and taking out the trash. Fortunately he knows that he is no more worthy of making that decision than anyone else. He doesn't label people as "evil" at all, he stops those that are attempting to harm others, or breaking the law, or putting others at risk for their own personal gain. But that's the end of it. He stops them, turns them over to whatever authorities he feels are appropriate (Arkham Asylum for some, local cops for others), and hopes that they have learned their lesson. If they get out and do it again, he stops them again. He doesn't impose his own judgment on them beyond protecting what he considers right and wrong.

That's the vital part of Superman that most people don't get. He doesn't want to be God, he wants us to figure it out for ourselves, but he's going to do his best to give us a hand along the way. And be a symbol of what we could be to help inspire us.
 

Gavinmad

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God I can't get enough of that DCUO trailer. Too bad the game itself is terrible, like all games with trailers that awesome.
 

Caliane

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Seriously though. I would like to see, a "whats so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way", that actually uses The Authority. And is not a strawman.
Its kindof funny, the animated version doesn't even use the title^. The marketing team apparently didn't read the comic or watch the movie.

but the second problem is the strawman. The Authority, who its based on. would LOVE Superman. The entire premise is, "a better world". They stopped talking, and started doing. Lead by example. They routinely talked down supervillians. Took sociopaths, and put them to work helping the world. The Elite are criminals pretending to be heroes. Basically the corporate Authority that tried taking over the Authority that one time.

Heres a blog on, "what's so funny.."
http://geekinthecity.com/2010/05/09/...-american-way/
Makes a nice parallel, on heroes, and America and "the American way".

What is stopping the US from wiping out North Korean? Iran? Are we afraid of them? their allies?
We aren't world police. Letting them, live how they please is their right.
Tyranny is not the American way.



On that topic. Go read The Authority. and then Planetary.
You want a hard ass Justice League? check it out.
 

Killswitch

N00b
157
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Seriously. They should of just scrapped the game entirely and just turned that into a animated movie.
This!!!!

I don't understand why either DC or Marvel go this route and make full length features like this? It can be quite easily done like they did with Final Fantasy.
 

Tuco

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Vvoid nailed it, but my answer would be 'because he's inspirational on a different level than other popular heros'