Modern software sucks, and computing is garbage while hardware is blazing new frontiers.

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Trump's Staff
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Fuck you, you braindead moron. No one even brought up free software until you just did to move the goalposts after your overwhelming and obvious failure to back up your previous statement.

Since you can't possibly argue that Chrome isn't demonstrably worse than it was as little as five years ago, I'll go ahead and demolish this new "go pay for software if you want it to be optimized" canard you just decided was your best way out. Adobe's software is completely pay-only excepting the free PDF reader. Not only is their pay software a giant pile of nearly unusable trash, even the free PDF reader they give out for the sole purpose of trying to hook you into their paid software is clearly inferior to just letting Edge display the PDF. Acrobat Reader used to be a simple, lightweight application that was fast as fuck, but within the same 5 year time period as Chrome's demise it has also become a bloated piece of shit that isn't worth installing. So Adobe can't even make their free software meant to be an advertisement useful for a single purpose any longer, much less their full paid applications.

You are just ignorant and wrong on so many levels it is pathetic.

Oh no no. I skipped that argument because it was retarded to begin with.

Chrome 5 years ago was not better than today. Here is the version history you can have facts to back it up, instead of your stupid feels of "it was better why did it go to shit!!!11211?!!!


on the last 5 years, they Implemented AMP, Shadow DOM, CSS grid layout, and tons of bugs and fixes.

You fucking cuckold have no idea about it, and all you can say is "whaaa it was better 5 years ago". No it wasn't you idiot.
 

LiquidDeath

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Oh no no. I skipped that argument because it was retarded to begin with.

Chrome 5 years ago was not better than today. Here is the version history you can have facts to back it up, instead of your stupid feels of "it was better why did it go to shit!!!11211?!!!


on the last 5 years, they Implemented AMP, Shadow DOM, CSS grid layout, and tons of bugs and fixes.

You fucking cuckold have no idea about it, and all you can say is "whaaa it was better 5 years ago". No it wasn't you idiot.
Ahh, so you've been so thoroughly destroyed that now you're switching to the "but they have deployed multiple bug fixes and software updates" argument that no-one disputes since we were talking about actually using the application. Nobody gives a shit that they improved mobile performance when they are using the desktop app, and no one gives a shit about AMP on Android when the browser still crashes and freezes continuously despite hardware improvements. Your pathetic link of a deployment history as proof that a piece of software is functional and usable just proves what a clueless faggot you are.

"Windows 11 is a major version upgrade over Windows 10 and runs Android apps natively thus it is already the superior piece of software from a user standpoint." That's you. That's what you sound like.
 

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Trump's Staff
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Ahh, so you've been so thoroughly destroyed that now you're switching to the "but they have deployed multiple bug fixes and software updates" argument that no-one disputes since we were talking about actually using the application. Nobody gives a shit that they improved mobile performance when they are using the desktop app, and no one gives a shit about AMP on Android when the browser still crashes and freezes continuously despite hardware improvements. Your pathetic link of a deployment history as proof that a piece of software is functional and usable just proves what a clueless faggot you are.

"Windows 11 is a major version upgrade over Windows 10 and runs Android apps natively thus it is already the superior piece of software from a user standpoint." That's you. That's what you sound like.

you sound as reatrded as the people that complain that cars are not built like they used to be and how they are "objectively worse" today.

Ok king fag since you don't want to talk you know development stuff and actual software improvements. so tell me, describe how "chrome was objectively better 5 years ago than today". put it in words. Since actual facts are escaping you.
 

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How is software made.

Software, particularly software for users outside of the company is made by several teams, each with an unique set of talents.

First come the idea, what is the software, is supposed to do. This part while easy to explain at a higher level, it is very hard to define in a matter that is useful.


Example, lets make a software that books hotel rooms, something very straight forward, easy to explain in an elevator, in a 40 second pitch to an investor.

Ok perfect, so first before any code is written, the Idea has to be expanded. UI teams get involved and product managers and designers come up with a series of screens that dictate flow and functionality. They hash out very super important details about what color/font/graphics/branding details to use, where are things are going to be placed on the screen, where do the clicks take you inside the site. Everything has to be planned out and written down somewhere or a mockup of flow be made so you can see where you go from point A to point B. It is at this point where all the important decisions are made: are we going to track down user movement on the site, are we going to require them to log in, etc.

All of these so far are called "business decisions" and so far not a single line of code has been written. Most of the personnel involved is not really developers, but graphics designers, UX guys, product management. This process can take a while while they hash out all the details, or as many details as they can foresee at that time.

Ok now it is time to code. Developers are handed instructions/mockups of what the site is going to be. The screen / tasks are separated into teams/individuals and they start their work. This is where the rubber meet the road and you realize some of the ideas handled to you simply don't work, or they are very hard to implement. This is the part where bugs start to exists, but hopefully your development team is able to create something that resembles mostly what was originally intended.


That is an oversimplification of software development. But you can say that is a mixture of two things. Non technical people who have the idea in their head of what it is supposed to do, and technical people who have to implement those ideas.
 

Tuco

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Uncle Bob tells us this.

In order to go fast, you have to go well.


Great series on software development. This was the guy referenced on the latest factorio cancel culture controversy.
Uncle Bob has some good ideas, but you should not have everything turned into small functions if it clutters readability.
I started reading Clean Code about 5ish years ago. As you probably know but others might, a common approach in his book is to take an example of bad production code and clean it up. It's a great approach and he picked some good examples of trash code that's out there. I strongly disagreed with so much of the principles he laid out in his book that I couldn't stand to see shitty code turned into gold plated shitty code so I rewrote it the normal way I'd write it. It got to be so cumbersome to see him turn 1 page of shit into three pages of shit that I'd turn into half a page of "senior dev" code (whatever that means) that I couldn't keep going with the book.

The small function shit is the worst offender. Turning every class into a damn storybook with overly defined functions.
 
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Tuco

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As for the OP: It's funny how regressive so many websites are. Recipe websites are some of the worst offenders. You're at the store trying to remember what herbs you need to buy for your pot roast so you try and find some recipes and are swarmed with the most ad-infested, dysfunctional garbage ever. And it's not just one of them, it's basically all of the popular ones that google/bing will cough up.

Every now and then you'll get a comical blast from the past and I can't help but enjoy how easy this low-bandwidth, non-responsive design websites are to navigate (ex: Dole Kemp '96 ) Meanwhile it seems like any website someone pays a lot of $$$ for UX on is just a way to train users to break their damn finger scrolling through it like a CVS receipt.


But for me, "modern software" is cutting edge gaming, tech, robot, autonomous shit. Unreal 4 (and I guess 5 now) is one of the greatest open source pieces of software ever made and beats the crap out of everything that came before it. So I can't say that modern software is stuck in a rut just because you hate the ribbon (I also hate it) in Office.
 

Control

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Unreal 4 (and I guess 5 now) is one of the greatest open source pieces of software ever made and beats the crap out of everything that came before it.
The big difference here is that a modern game is (theoretically) giving you some benefit over what was possible on hardware that was available 20 years ago. The problem is most of what we do with "productivity" software hasn't really changed in 20 years, except that it takes more resources to maintain a similar level of performance, so the usability versus performance is a big net loss, especially when the usability actually decreases. It's like using Unreal 5 to make Super Mario Brothers, adding a couple of features, but managing to make running and jumping shittier.
 

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Trump's Staff
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If you want to look at leaps in terms of software development look at games and how much they have evolved in the past 10 years, in terms of visual quality.

Death Stranding is a visual masterpiece, the games just look amazing, the instant connectivity you have with players around the world., all that is a direct result of better software.

Also separating hardware from software is very hard. If software is from the realm of the mind, hardware is from the realm of the hand, and hardware lags behind just a little bit behind software. ( I guess this can be a philosophical argument sort of).

For every hardware that you see, there are tons of code backed inside of it that controls its functions. It is firmware as you all know and it falls under the umbrella of programming as well.
 
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gLobal

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I probably fall under the tech informed user category. I haven't written any substantial code, but I feel like there is a point where software designed for users gets taken over by the unceasing need to collect/monetize. At that point, the experience begins a steady downward fall.

Objectively - I could point to things that got better. Subjectively - software in general sure has gotten invasive, bloated, and cumbersome.

I keep a folder on my PC of old programs that do exactly what I want. It's so nice to run an older .exe from 15+ years ago (without installing!) and it just does what I need it to in an instant. I want that to be the norm again, but I know it's a pipe dream at this point.
 

AladainAF

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How is software made.

Software, particularly software for users outside of the company is made by several teams, each with an unique set of talents.

First come the idea, what is the software, is supposed to do. This part while easy to explain at a higher level, it is very hard to define in a matter that is useful.


Example, lets make a software that books hotel rooms, something very straight forward, easy to explain in an elevator, in a 40 second pitch to an investor.

Ok perfect, so first before any code is written, the Idea has to be expanded. UI teams get involved and product managers and designers come up with a series of screens that dictate flow and functionality. They hash out very super important details about what color/font/graphics/branding details to use, where are things are going to be placed on the screen, where do the clicks take you inside the site. Everything has to be planned out and written down somewhere or a mockup of flow be made so you can see where you go from point A to point B. It is at this point where all the important decisions are made: are we going to track down user movement on the site, are we going to require them to log in, etc.

All of these so far are called "business decisions" and so far not a single line of code has been written. Most of the personnel involved is not really developers, but graphics designers, UX guys, product management. This process can take a while while they hash out all the details, or as many details as they can foresee at that time.

Ok now it is time to code. Developers are handed instructions/mockups of what the site is going to be. The screen / tasks are separated into teams/individuals and they start their work. This is where the rubber meet the road and you realize some of the ideas handled to you simply don't work, or they are very hard to implement. This is the part where bugs start to exists, but hopefully your development team is able to create something that resembles mostly what was originally intended.


That is an oversimplification of software development. But you can say that is a mixture of two things. Non technical people who have the idea in their head of what it is supposed to do, and technical people who have to implement those ideas.

You're taking this really personally bro. Please understand that the thread is not about "software developers don't know how to code". Yes, we all know the gist of how the systems work, and dare I say software development is not unique in this regard.

Any widget that gets made has design teams etc etc before the first mould is cast.

This thread is about the software that is made is a garbage experience. And it is. That's flat out irrefutable. The hardware has to work more and more and more as time goes on with the more and more things that get added to existing software, things that rely on code on top of code.

You missed the entire point and purpose of the windows terminal video, and I think you missed the entire point and purpose of the second video too. The entire premise, is that given the hardware capabilities we have today, how come the *** EXPERIENCE USING THE SOFTWARE *** and in general the *** COMPUTING EXPERIENCE *** is worse. That's the entire point.

You say "Chrome is better today than 5 years ago". Yes, it is. It can do more and has more things under the hood. But it also crashes more. It also uses more memory than before. It also spins more CPU cycles than before. It also introduced new bugs that didnt exist before.

I am going to assume you know C#. Go slap a custom UI on a .net core app and toss in 10 list boxes with 2000 items in each one, and write a filter above each listbox so that it filters the list for that listbox every time the filter string changes. That app is gonna be slow as fuck, unless you write your own listbox control.

Go open a 500 MB file with Notepad and try to work with it.

So here we are. In 2021, with amazing hardware, unable to filter 20000 items in a box. Unable to open a file that uses less than 2% of the total memory size of the average computer these days.

Here's a link to an article that the guy mentioned in one of his videos:


Article said:
A second-tier German professional basketball team has been relegated to an even lower tier as a result of being penalized for starting a recent game late—because the Windows laptop that powered the scoreboard required 17 minutes to perform system updates.
 
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AladainAF

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If you want to look at leaps in terms of software development look at games and how much they have evolved in the past 10 years, in terms of visual quality.

Yes, it looks better, and I like that you specifically called that out. Though I would argue thats way more to do with the hardware than software, but I do agree it looks better.

But holy shit does it run like trash.

Look at Cyberpunk and it's release. Look at Path of Exile continuing to be plagued with performance issues. Look at the excuses that get made every time a game has a shitty launch "It's okay, day 1 patch incoming!". How long did HZD take to fix their framerate issues? Is it fixed yet? How about Fallout 76. What about Warcraft III reforged? Remember Diablo 3 launch?

But hey, it looks good, right guys?

Software is so fucking bad these days, even games, that we are at the point where we expect games to be plagued with day 1 launch problems and need day one patches just to be functional and somewhat enjoyable. That is the NORM, not the exception. AND IT SHOULD NOT BE.

Look at consoles. Xbox One crashing. PS4 crashing. PS5 crashing. Etc.

Do you ever remember your PS2 crashing? PS1? Nintendo? TG16?

Want to take a poll to find out how many people think the 3.15 Path of Exile league will launch with minor issues at most?
 
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Kharzette

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OP vid guy is I think Casey Muratori. He did a bunch of code on the witness, and is making his own game from scratch and streaming the entire effort on twitch.

He's right though. The software I've used the most in my life is visual studio, and it has gotten worse and worse and worse. 2008 was the last halfway decent version.

Windows is steadily getting worse as well. I'm still on 8.1 and will keep with it as long as I can. I also don't update basic software anymore because inevitably bloat is added that you don't want.

This guy is a wizard with etw traces and digs deep into some crazy funny problems: Random ASCII - tech blog of Bruce Dawson

I think he works on chrome, so I don't know why it is in such a state. I guess too much for one person to fix.
 
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Tuco

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OP vid guy is I think Casey Muratori. He did a bunch of code on the witness, and is making his own game from scratch and streaming the entire effort on twitch.

He's right though. The software I've used the most in my life is visual studio, and it has gotten worse and worse and worse. 2008 was the last halfway decent version.

Windows is steadily getting worse as well. I'm still on 8.1 and will keep with it as long as I can. I also don't update basic software anymore because inevitably bloat is added that you don't want.

This guy is a wizard with etw traces and digs deep into some crazy funny problems: Random ASCII - tech blog of Bruce Dawson

I think he works on chrome, so I don't know why it is in such a state. I guess too much for one person to fix.
Sometimes I think about installing XP on an old (or new) machine, installed Microsoft Word 2003, Visual Studio 2003 and see if it is as good and responsive as I remember.
 

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People on this thread are suffering from massive memory loss.

Windows XP was plagued by massive huge security flaws. Worm viruses were rampant and if you were to connect your windows XP right after you install it from a CD to the campus network were I used to work, you will get infected with a worm virus. The Blaster worm was notorious for this.

I used to work on IT support on a major university on the early 2000s, so we had to install windows XP, then upgrade to SP2 BEFORE connecting the network cable, why? Because there were tons of vulnerabilities that viruses exploited. I have inserted a small article from the wiki, addressing this same point.

Windows XP has been criticized by many users[who?] for its vulnerabilities due to buffer overflows and its susceptibility to malware such as viruses, trojan horses, and worms. Nicholas Petreley for The Register notes that "Windows XP was the first version of Windows to reflect a serious effort to isolate users from the system, so that users each have their own private files and limited system privileges."[1] However, users by default receive an administrator account that provides unrestricted access to the underpinnings of the system. If the administrator's account is compromised, there is no limit to the control that can be asserted over the PC. Windows XP Home Edition also lacks the ability to administer security policies and denies access to the Local Users and Groups utility.

Microsoft executives[who?] have stated that the release of security patches is often what causes the spread of exploits against those very same flaws, as crackers figure out what problems the patches fix and then launch attacks against unpatched systems. For example, in August 2003 the Blaster worm exploited a vulnerability present in every unpatched installation of Windows XP, and was capable of compromising a system even without user action. In May 2004 the Sasser worm spread by using a buffer overflow in a remote service present on every installation. Patches to prevent both of these well-known worms had already been released by Microsoft. Increasingly widespread use of Service Pack 2 and greater use of personal firewalls may also contribute to making worms like these less common.[2]

Many attacks against Windows XP systems come in the form of trojan horse e-mail attachments which contain worms. A user who opens the attachment can unknowingly infect his or her own computer, which may then e-mail the worm to more people. Notable worms of this sort that have infected Windows XP systems include Mydoom, Netsky and Bagle. To discourage users from running such programs, Service Pack 2 includes the Attachment Execution Service which records the origin of files downloaded with Internet Explorer or received as an attachment in Outlook Express. If a user tries to run a program downloaded from an untrusted security zone, Windows XP with Service Pack 2 will prompt the user with a warning.

Spyware and adware are a continuing problem on Windows XP and other versions of Windows. Spyware is also a concern for Microsoft with regard to service pack updates; Barry Goff, a group product manager at Microsoft, said some spyware could cause computers to freeze up upon installation of Service Pack 2.[3] In January 2005, Microsoft released a free beta version of Windows Defender which removes some spyware and adware from computers.

Windows XP offers some useful security benefits, such as Windows Update, which can be set to install security patches automatically, and a built-in firewall. If a user doesn't install the updates for a long time after the Windows Update icon is displayed in the toolbar, Windows will automatically install them and restart the computer on its own. This can lead to the loss of unsaved data if the user is away from the computer when the updates are installed. Service Pack 2 enables the firewall by default. It also adds increased memory protection to let the operating system take advantage of new No eXecute technology built into CPUs such as the AMD64. This allows Windows XP to prevent some buffer overflow exploits.

On April 8, 2014, extended support of Windows XP ended. As this means that security vulnerabilities are no longer patched, the general advice given by both Microsoft and security specialists is to no longer use Windows XP.

Windows XP at launch was better than windows ME and 98, but worse than 7 and 10 .
 

AladainAF

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People on this thread are suffering from massive memory loss.

Windows XP was plagued by massive huge security flaws. Worm viruses were rampant and if you were to connect your windows XP right after you install it from a CD to the campus network were I used to work, you will get infected with a worm virus. The Blaster worm was notorious for this.

I used to work on IT support on a major university on the early 2000s, so we had to install windows XP, then upgrade to SP2 BEFORE connecting the network cable, why? Because there were tons of vulnerabilities that viruses exploited. I have inserted a small article from the wiki, addressing this same point.



Windows XP at launch was better than windows ME and 98, but worse than 7 and 10 .

I mean, yeah. Casey mentioned in his video this downfall started around 1995-1996 with the whole advent of "plug and play". Windows XP would be a part of that, but a large reason why people don't recall Windows XP release bugs and problems is because those problems were not problems for the general population of users. They were problems that largely affected businesses, colleges, etc, just like you described. I know of no one personally who was affected by any of the worms in the early 2000s. But even in that case, many people (most especially corporate companies) tend to not to adopt new operating systems quickly. They were not updating to Windows XP on day one. It doesn't excuse the issues, but it does make them less relevant because you're not put into a position where you're forced to update.

In 2017, over half of the businesses in this country still relied on at least one system that still ran Windows XP. TODAY, over 15% of all PCs still run Windows 7. If I recall, over 90% of all banking ATMs still run Windows XP to this day. If software is so much better today, why are they doing this?

How many people are running a year old version of Chrome? Are you allowed to even do that or does it FORCE update you? I have an Adobe CC subscription for my business, and this thing automatically updates itself multiple times a year to add its new bloated bullshit and there's nothing I can do about this. Oh sure, I can turn off auto updates, but the moment I need any level of support whatsoever they aren't going to touch this unless I'm on the latest version.

Speaking of photoshop, with the latest update, I can't even figure out how to save a generic Windows BMP anymore. They removed almost all file types supported by save as, and you can't export many images as a BMP either, even with RGB color space and 8 bit depth. If you search online, no one seems to have a clear answer to this yet.

Fucking terrible experience, because I need to be able to save 2048x2048 BMPs the old way, and there's no clear way I can go back to an older version of photoshop that lets me do this.
 

Tuco

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I mean, yeah. Casey mentioned in his video this downfall started around 1995-1996 with the whole advent of "plug and play". Windows XP would be a part of that, but a large reason why people don't recall Windows XP release bugs and problems is because those problems were not problems for the general population of users. They were problems that largely affected businesses, colleges, etc, just like you described. I know of no one personally who was affected by any of the worms in the early 2000s. But even in that case, many people (most especially corporate companies) tend to not to adopt new operating systems quickly. They were not updating to Windows XP on day one. It doesn't excuse the issues, but it does make them less relevant because you're not put into a position where you're forced to update.

In 2017, over half of the businesses in this country still relied on at least one system that still ran Windows XP. TODAY, over 15% of all PCs still run Windows 7. If I recall, over 90% of all banking ATMs still run Windows XP to this day. If software is so much better today, why are they doing this?

How many people are running a year old version of Chrome? Are you allowed to even do that or does it FORCE update you? I have an Adobe CC subscription for my business, and this thing automatically updates itself multiple times a year to add its new bloated bullshit and there's nothing I can do about this. Oh sure, I can turn off auto updates, but the moment I need any level of support whatsoever they aren't going to touch this unless I'm on the latest version.

Speaking of photoshop, with the latest update, I can't even figure out how to save a generic Windows BMP anymore. They removed almost all file types supported by save as, and you can't export many images as a BMP either, even with RGB color space and 8 bit depth. If you search online, no one seems to have a clear answer to this yet.

Fucking terrible experience, because I need to be able to save 2048x2048 BMPs the old way, and there's no clear way I can go back to an older version of photoshop that lets me do this.
I only fuck around with Photoshop if my graphic designer is there to hold my hand. Otherwise im a gimp man.