MTG thread

Organized play (OP) is not the same thing as the 'judge program'. Organizing judges, helping them practice for tests, etc.. are all volunteer based things that the judges do themselves, yes. But, that's not what OP is at all. OP is the Wizards department that schedules GPs/Pro Tours, invented and supports FNM, PTQs, etc.. Helene Burgeot (sp?) is the head of OP, or was.. she might have been promoted beyond that title.
To become a regional coordinator or to host tournaments, you have to get it ok'd by OP. After that, it's up to you about handling the details.

Drtyrm_sl said:

I don't think I've had any particularly bad interactions with judges. I guess my irritation is with the excessive importance competitive play types put on their way of playing MtG. You see it all over the reddit discussion over the leaks and now the bans.

Bergeot posted a statement from Wizards regarding the leak, specifying that this group has had access to some spoilers for multiple expansions?

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Since this much at least has ended up on social media, I suppose it's fine to say: This "group" was a Facebook chat among friends. It wasn't some organized, 0-day leaking group. It was just a chat channel where the region's leadership kept in touch. 99% of the content was just friends bullshitting with friends, and not MTG related at all. Someone in that channel posted a spoiler, and like every other spoiler people saw it and just assumed "oh neat, new card but maybe fake" and went on with their lives, or had the channel muted, or just didn't log in. Then someone in that channel sent it to a podcast, and into the wild it went. The people who transmitted it have received suspensions long enough that their judge certifications will lapse, and they'll have to recertify from L0 if they ever decide to. Everyone else, even people who just permanently sit in the channel in the event that someone needs to ask a logistical or scheduling question about an event now and again, were suspended just for being there.

As to the importance of competitive play... It's just the highest profile activity associated with the game, not necessarily the best. The difficulty with the invisible population of kitchen table players is that they don't really interact with the community or make their presence known. It's the 80/20 rule at work, and WotC focuses pretty heavily on promoting Magic through competitive events. In fact I'd say it's their #1 marketing avenue (that's all tournaments are for anyone from the smallest TO to WotC's Pro-Tour). If I disparaged L1s in any way, then it wasn't intentional. They're the vast majority of the program, something like 75-80% of total judges, and they're absolutely vital to supporting both competitive *and* casual play at the store level.

enzie_sl said:

To become a regional coordinator or to host tournaments, you have to get it ok'd by OP. After that, it's up to you about handling the details.

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TO, not regional coordinator. RC is an actual position within the judge program, arguably more influential than L4s and L5s and certainly higher impact on the day to day judging lives of the people in their region.

I understand what you are saying Heylel and apologize if I came across overly hostile. I was in the midst of dropping a bunch of mmr in dota2 last night.

The 80% in the 80/20 you talk about is not invisible to WotC though, and if their market research shows that spoiler season is an important tool for them (which I think it is), then the WotC response makes sense.

I don't trust WoTC's market research, it says there are more than a handful of "humans" that actually like Infect in EDH.

Drtyrm_sl said:

The 80% in the 80/20 you talk about is not invisible to WotC though, and if their market research shows that spoiler season is an important tool for them (which I think it is), then the WotC response makes sense.

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They're incredibly important, and no one involved in the leak has tried to argue that it was a GOOD thing. The problem is that no one knew they were doing anything that risked a suspension by being present in a chat where a leak was posted. They've been suspended for not immediately running to report it to WotC. When Kozilek hit the web, there was all sorts of speculation that it was just a fake. It easily could have been. Excellent fakes have happened before.

Also keep in mind, we're not discussing the big Oath spoiler with all the mythics and expeditions. This group had nothing to do with that. WotC's response appears to be punishing the SE chat channel for the earlier leak while blaming the later one on the same crowd. They've heavily implied without outright claiming that the group has been responsible for every leak over the last year or two (I can't even remember the others, if there were any). That didn't happen, but WotC is trying very hard to give that impression.

Suspending the two people responsible makes sense. They know they goofed. It's going to cost them their favorite hobby and their certification, and at least Mississippi and Alabama are going to really suffer in terms of organized events until new judges can find a way to cover those events. What's completely out of left field is punishing all of the regional leadership who never did anything wrong. A simple email or phone call to our RC saying "hey if this happens again, you need to tell us" would have been sufficient to ensure they get all the support and communication they need. After all, that's HOW they caught the leakers! There was an RC conference *last week* with WotC reps present. It could have been handled in person in less than thirty seconds.

Heylel_sl said:

They're incredibly important, and no one involved in the leak has tried to argue that it was a GOOD thing. The problem is that no one knew they were doing anything that risked a suspension by being present in a chat where a leak was posted. They've been suspended for not immediately running to report it to WotC. When Kozilek hit the web, there was all sorts of speculation that it was just a fake. It easily could have been. Excellent fakes have happened before.

Also keep in mind, we're not discussing the big Oath spoiler with all the mythics and expeditions. This group had nothing to do with that. WotC's response appears to be punishing the SE chat channel for the earlier leak while blaming the later one on the same crowd. They've heavily implied without outright claiming that the group has been responsible for every leak over the last year or two (I can't even remember the others, if there were any). That didn't happen, but WotC is trying very hard to give that impression.

Suspending the two people responsible makes sense. They know they goofed. It's going to cost them their favorite hobby and their certification, and at least Mississippi and Alabama are going to really suffer in terms of organized events until new judges can find a way to cover those events. What's completely out of left field is punishing all of the regional leadership who never did anything wrong. A simple email or phone call to our RC saying "hey if this happens again, you need to tell us" would have been sufficient to ensure they get all the support and communication they need. After all, that's HOW they caught the leakers! There was an RC conference *last week* with WotC reps present. It could have been handled in person in less than thirty seconds.

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^exactly how I feel about what happened and the reasoning behind those feelings. Did something happen that in hindsight should not have? Yes. Is the handling of that situation and the response to the resulting outcry acceptable? No.

No one upset is pissed people were punished. We're pissed that people who didn't need to be punished were caught in a wide net because Wizards felt the need to swing their dick around and show everyone how big it was. To make the repercussions for being involved in a leak in even an obscure manner obvious going forward. Also to imply an association with the recent serious Oath leak to say "Look how fast we brought the hammer down on this shit." as a statement to the community. You don't scapegoat people who need to feel you appreciate, support, and will treat them fairly.

If it wasn't for the false implication and unfair treatment there would be no issue. They could have punished two people, explained what happened and the reason it's unacceptable, and outlined how to handle that kind of situation because there would be zero tolerance going forward. They didn't so here we are with a lot of people important to the judge program reconsidering their commitment based on the treatment their peers have received.

Also I just found a message in my reddit inbox from a throwaway saying hi from rerolled. I don't really give a shit about anything online but I'd appreciate respecting my RL privacy. Just sayin.

I'll be on staff for SCG Atlanta if any rerollers want to come say hi. As events go, it might be a little bit weird depending on how all this suspension stuff shakes out in January.

Heylel_sl said:

TO, not regional coordinator. RC is an actual position within the judge program, arguably more influential than L4s and L5s and certainly higher impact on the day to day judging lives of the people in their region.

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To become a judge, any level, you have to pass a test that OP created. Another judge will administer the test, yes, but they upload the results to Wotc, who are the ones that officially give you that status. I said to be a regional coord OR to host tournaments, I just didn't use the title Tournament Organizer.

how hard is it to get a candelabra of Tawnos? been tryign to get one here in SC, but so far no dice.

enzie_sl said:

To become a judge, any level, you have to pass a test that OP created. Another judge will administer the test, yes, but they upload the results to Wotc, who are the ones that officially give you that status. I said to be a regional coord OR to host tournaments, I just didn't use the title Tournament Organizer.

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OP doesn't create the exams either. Those are done from a question bank created and maintained by the program. WotC does host the Judge Center, which is where you take the test. The full testing + interview procedure is handled by us, though, and WotC hasn't provided site maintenance for years. Testing would have moved off Judge Center a very long time ago except that it connects directly to the DCI database for purposes of registering events in WER, and so forth.

We're talking in circles though, and yes you're more or less correct. I just meant that RC wasn't something you really "become" in a standard way. They're hand picked within the program from among L3+ judges who are leaders in that region.

Strossus_sl said:

how hard is it to get a candelabra of Tawnos? been tryign to get one here in SC, but so far no dice.

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$300 and a stamp.

There are some heavy play ones up on TCGplayer for $200 if you don't care about condition

Taloo_sl said:

Also I just found a message in my reddit inbox from a throwaway saying hi from rerolled. I don't really give a shit about anything online but I'd appreciate respecting my RL privacy. Just sayin.

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I agree with your point, just confused on what your reddit inbox has to do with your RL? Does it have your RL info in your profile or something?

So Bergerot did a podcast with one of the 3yr suspended dudes. She confirmed again that there had been spoilers leaked in that group since March.

Judge Apps is back up but the dude posted some huge screed about how sour he is with WotC.

Yea, no one is upset that the guys doing the actual leaking are suspended. The only thing that is a point of contention is that people in the chat were all suspended, who did not leak anything. Wotc has never said that failing to report a POTENTIAL leak is grounds for suspension, but that's what a bunch of people were suspended for.

From Bergerot it seems them being judges had nothing to do with the whole process. Bottom line they were DCI members who didn't report a potential leak. Even though some of those banned didn't see it and weren't around when the leak happened.

Bergerot/WotC are just being so vague in absolutely everything they've said and everything they are accusing these guys of. It's like they are leading you to assume certain things have happened but they are not actually saying it or offering any other instances or proof.

On the other hand, I've yet to see any of the punished folks respond to the spoilers since March fact that has been stated by WotC. It's a lot harder to claim 'I thought they were fakes' when there had been previous spoilers leaked to your chat group beforehand.

Just ignore that WotC talked about the difference between public and private dissemination of spoilers.