NBA 2013?14 Season

Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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You're leaving a lot of people out if #2 is just between Lebron and Kobe. It also has a huge impact on unmeasurables people love debating.

You can easily take someone's height, weight, speed, vertical, etc and say Lebron is the greatest of all time. That's not how these comparisons work, though. What you actually did that counts. Being able to lead your team to championships is worth a lot more than ditching your team to find an easier situation. If Jordan had said "fuck it, Detroit is just too good" and went to the Lakers he wouldn't be revered like he is today. Same with Kobe and the Celtics.

What did Lebron do when the Celtics kept beating his Cavs? He quit. What did he do when things got tough against the Mavs? He disappeared. He shit up the entire Finals and was the reason they lost. Wade and Bosh who are the current scapegoats, outplayed him and were the only reason they were in it. Jordan and Kobe would never let that happen. They both wanted to not only beat you, but embarrass you so bad your own children would be ashamed of you. People love that shit

So its not about his ability, he's the GOAT in god given talent. It's his inability to do as much with it as Jordan and Kobe who weren't born with his godly talent

Edit: To be fair he does get a lot more shit than he deserves for a lot of things. Passing to the open man at the end of a game, not playing through cramps, and not winning 8 titles are all unfair.
 
Djay

Djay

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Since Jordan? There's no doubt Lebron is the greatest since Jordan and there's no competition. Shaq had one of the greatest seasons after Jordan left, but as far as career goes it's not close. I only use those intangibles, like championships, as tie-breakers. I'm not going to say Rasheed Wallace was a better PF than Barkley, for instance. But if you want to use that argument to say that Bird, Jordan, and Magic are 1-2-3 and Lebron is 4th because he switched teams when the going got tough? I'm okay with that. You can rearrange within tiers based on things like that, but you can't completely move someone out of a tier.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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Jordan gets his own tier. Shaq, Lebron, and Kobe are below that. Shaq had better individual seasons while Kobe wins in longevity. You also can't give Lebron credit for things he hasn't done. He may start to decline and not win anymore titles. So he could overtake them by the time he's done, but that's pretty far from a guarantee
 
Djay

Djay

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Nope. Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Lebron are top tier...if Lebron retired today, then I'd still be okay saying that. Below them are people like Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, and Hakeem. Duncan, Thomas, Robertson are in there. Kobe is somewhere at the end of that tier or the start of the 3rd tier. Shaq is below that. He had one dominant season and got his butt kicked whenever going against Hakeem or Robinson or any of the great centers from the 90s. He was going against duds for most of his career, so people overestimate how good he was. Edit* Not to mention that he should have been called for an offensive foul pretty much every time he posted up.

If he had WANTED to, perhaps he would be higher on the list, but he didn't deliver consistently.
 
Drakurii

Drakurii

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Djay_sl said:
Nope. Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Lebron are top tier...if Lebron retired today, then I'd still be okay saying that. Below them are people like Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, and Hakeem. Duncan, Thomas, Robertson are in there. Kobe is somewhere at the end of that tier or the start of the 3rd tier. Shaq is below that. He had one dominant seasons and got his butt kicked whenever going against Hakeem or Robinson or any of the great centers from the 90s. He was going against duds for most of his career, so people overestimate how good he was. Edit* Not to mention that he should have been called for an offensive foul pretty much every time he posted up.

If he has WANTED to, perhaps he would be higher on the list, but he didn't deliver consistently.
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You are bat shit crazy with your tier crap, no way you lump Lebron in with Jordan, Bird, and Magic. Those 3 won all their titles with the team they started with, the didn't jump ship to form super teams. If I'm putting together a all time great team I'm sure as shit not picking someone who is 2 out of 5 in the finals and disappears when they can't front run.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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No way Lebron is on Magic and Bird's level.

Shaq was fat and lazy which is why he was so terrible later on, but from 2000-2003 he was far more dominant than Lebron's ever been.
 
Djay

Djay

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Alex_sl said:
Just curious, how would you rate Oscar Robertson?
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I have him listed in that second tier. But specifically where in there? It's hard for me to say because all of my information about him is second hand. I've heard he was the most amazing basketball player, but a horrible teammate. We know that he averaged a triple double, but it was in an era when teams were hauling in WAY more rebounds per game than the contemporary game. He's definitely Top 50, probably Top 20, and maybe Top 10.

It's one reason I can never really decide between Wilt and Russell. I didn't see them play, so I'm relying on (biased) reports and statistics that are often out of context. Do I give Russell the edge because he was the ultimate winner and from-most-accounts, a defensive juggernaut? Or do I give the edge to Wilt who had the 100 point game, averaged 50 points and 20 rebounds one season? He led the league in assists one season when people said he wasn't passing enough. He could do anything on the court he wanted to, but didn't win as much and from-most-accounts was a horrible teammate.

Anyone who leaves Lebron off that list doesn't know what they're talking about.
 
A

Adam12

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Replace Shaq for anyone on the 2006 Heat and Dirk has 2.

I guess you'd have to replace the refs too, though.
 
Caal

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I think its pretty unfair to call Shaq fat and lazy. We've not seen a man of his size and strength since or before him. Calling a man that was over 7 feet and 300lbs when he was in perfect shape a fat ass when he gets to be 35 sounds extremely harsh to me.

I stood next to Karl Malone and Shaq in the 90s, and if I had to imagine what Thor would look like, Malone was it(aside from the darkness). Shaq made him look fucking puny. Totally unreal.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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Even a fat Shaq was miles ahead of everyone else, but he always came into the season out of shape and 15-20 pounds overweight. He also refused to have surgery in the offseason because he didn't feel like he should have surgery when he's not getting paid
 
Drakurii

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Djay_sl said:
Anyone who leaves Lebron off that list doesn't know what they're talking about.
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Physical talent, LeBron is at the top of any list, ALL TIME GREAT not so much. He will always be judged by championships. The greatest always are. His career is at the very least is half over. I won't go as far as to say Lebron is a bust but he has most certainly not lived up to expectations.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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I believe Jordan would have won more titles in today's era, and Lebron would probably be shut out in Jordan's era. Pretty simple who is and always will be greater in my mind. And while physically gifted, Jordan's intangibles are what made him great, and Lebron's shitty intangibles are what hold him back.

And yes, imo there's a huge difference and justifiable stigma owed to a player who will join with other greats instead of making other players great. Without Bird, I don't believe most of the Celtics would have ended up being seen as the great players we see them as. Same with Jordan. I loved me some No-Tippin' Pippin, but without Jordan he probably would have ended up a really good player, not seen as great. Lebron doesn't elevate other players to greatness. He's just always been bigger and stronger so tries to do it all himself and then quits when it gets hard.
 
Drakurii

Drakurii

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LeBron is the Peyton Manning of basketball, great in the regular season and comes up short more times than not in the post season.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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popsicledeath_sl said:
I believe Jordan would have won more titles in today's era, and Lebron would probably be shut out in Jordan's era. Pretty simple who is and always will be greater in my mind. And while physically gifted, Jordan's intangibles are what made him great, and Lebron's shitty intangibles are what hold him back.

And yes, imo there's a huge difference and justifiable stigma owed to a player who will join with other greats instead of making other players great. Without Bird, I don't believe most of the Celtics would have ended up being seen as the great players we see them as. Same with Jordan. I loved me some No-Tippin' Pippin, but without Jordan he probably would have ended up a really good player, not seen as great. Lebron doesn't elevate other players to greatness. He's just always been bigger and stronger so tries to do it all himself and then quits when it gets hard.
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Pippen lead a no Jordan team to 55 wins, a sweep and a 7 game series lost on a blown call. They were really, really good the year after Jordan left.

There is no single player in the history of the modern day NBA that has won a championship without help. You could be the best player of all time and average 55 points 20 rebounds and 10 assists, but you still need teammates that can score the other 50 needed to win a basketball game. The person that puts that team together? The GM. Kevin Love is going to leave the Wolves because Flip is a moron and he has no future chance at success here. The Cavs went from one of the best teams in the league to the worst upon losing LeBron. If you were him, would you really trust Danny Ferry to build more around you considering over a 7 year stretch your best teammates were Mo Williams and Carlos Boozer on a rookie scale before he got his ass out of town? The Cavs sucked. They're a shitty franchise. This is the team that drafted Anthony Fucking Bennett last year. Expecting someone to stick around in a shitty situation just to preserve his legacy is asinine. Did Jordan leave the Bulls? He played next to a hall of famer. Magic? He played with fucking Worthy and Kareem. Kobe? He was drafted by the greatest franchise ever and joined a team that had just traded for Shaq. Not a single one of these player's situations comes close to comparing.

All that matters in this legacy discussion is the statistics the players put up while playing the game and the championships they acquire, with a whole ton of lenience on the latter considering how little one player has to do with a team as a whole winning. Post Jordan, only a few players have had truly elite, elite seasons. Duncan has a stretch, so did KG. CP3 has a couple of the most productive seasons ever by a PG, and this last season by Durant is right up there too. LeBron? He's been great for 10 years and absolutely the best player in the league for 7 of them. There is no comparison in this discussion. None. Anyone making the argument otherwise is either a) not looking at LeBron's stats, b) severely overrating Kobe's championship count or c) a hater.

LeBron joined a list of like 100 people total that have won multiple championships. It's not like the NBA trophy gets passed around to a ton of different teams.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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Charlotte Hornets were the greatest team ever? Also, not that they would have been a great team but the Cavs lost a lot more than just Lebron that year
 
Djay

Djay

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Ambiturner_sl said:
Also, not that they would have been a great team but the Cavs lost a lot more than just Lebron that year
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A washed up Shaq? A washed up Ilgauskas? Danny Green before he was anybody? Jawad Williams? Leon Powe?
Really not sure who you're referring to.

The leading rebounder and 2nd leading scorer was Antawn Jamison and he was still there. Those Cavaliers teams were horrendous. Lebron single-handedly took those teams to the finals. And that Lebron didn't have a jumpshot like he does now.

Hate on his character all you want, but he's one of the best basketball players ever.

You're out of your element, Donnie.
 
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