NBA 2015-2016 Season thread
- Thread starter Neki
- Start date
Djay
Trakanon Raider
- 2,344
- 394
Kobe being highlighted instead of Bird on that 3rd picture is hilarious. Also, picking 2 centers and 0 SF's for MJ's team and no SG's for Magic or Lebron's teams handicaps them. Pippen could guard the 2 and Durant can play like one, so I guess it works, but that MJ team is a mess. No way I'm taking Wade and Iverson. Biggest wildcards are Wilt, Iverson, Kobe, and Shaq. Malone and Barkley make each other redundant especially with Shaq there also. The paint would be so clogged and your only threat from 3 is Westbrook.
Best team on paper is Bird's. They have the best SF ever, the 2nd best PG on any of the teams, the best PF, and one of the 4 best Centers to ever play. Kobe, Bird, and Paul can all shoot while Kareem and Duncan occupy the middle. It's the most balanced team as long as Kobe doesn't dominate the ball and try to play an ISO game whenever he gets it.
Next I take Magic's team. Wilt is a monster in the middle even if Davis is the least proven guy on this graphic. Magic is a playmaker...I worry that Durant is the only real shooter since Pippen and Magic were never huge outside threats, but Davis could stretch the floor at 4.
Then LeBron. I'd have him handle the ball and play Westbrook as a 2. You're going to be hurt by fast wings since either Barkley or Malone would get exploited at the 3, but nobody should ever outrebound this team. Also depends which Shaq you're getting, I guess. 2001 Shaq or fat, lazy, I only play hard when I want Shaq.
Last is MJ's team. It's just too unbalanced. Without Russell on this graphic, Hakeem is probably the 2nd best Center here after Wilt and neither him nor Robinson are strangers to the Two Towers lineups, but Jordan never really played with a good Center outside the Olympics and all-star games. Pick-and-rolls and feeding the man-in-the-middle were never part of the Bulls strategies. When you throw in Wade who can't shoot deep and relies on foul calls and Iverson who needs the ball in Isolation...this "team" is a disaster.
Best team on paper is Bird's. They have the best SF ever, the 2nd best PG on any of the teams, the best PF, and one of the 4 best Centers to ever play. Kobe, Bird, and Paul can all shoot while Kareem and Duncan occupy the middle. It's the most balanced team as long as Kobe doesn't dominate the ball and try to play an ISO game whenever he gets it.
Next I take Magic's team. Wilt is a monster in the middle even if Davis is the least proven guy on this graphic. Magic is a playmaker...I worry that Durant is the only real shooter since Pippen and Magic were never huge outside threats, but Davis could stretch the floor at 4.
Then LeBron. I'd have him handle the ball and play Westbrook as a 2. You're going to be hurt by fast wings since either Barkley or Malone would get exploited at the 3, but nobody should ever outrebound this team. Also depends which Shaq you're getting, I guess. 2001 Shaq or fat, lazy, I only play hard when I want Shaq.
Last is MJ's team. It's just too unbalanced. Without Russell on this graphic, Hakeem is probably the 2nd best Center here after Wilt and neither him nor Robinson are strangers to the Two Towers lineups, but Jordan never really played with a good Center outside the Olympics and all-star games. Pick-and-rolls and feeding the man-in-the-middle were never part of the Bulls strategies. When you throw in Wade who can't shoot deep and relies on foul calls and Iverson who needs the ball in Isolation...this "team" is a disaster.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,153
- 19,740
Not sure why you find Kobe being the highlight of that team as hilarious. He's had a much much better overall career than Bird and played almost twice as long.
Djay
Trakanon Raider
- 2,344
- 394
Enzee
Trakanon Raider
- 2,197
- 715
I think the person who made the graphic took the best players (in his opinion) at each position for the last 4 decades. etc.. The person highlighted is the best player of his era, kobe being 90s/early 2000s. Bird is from Jordan and Magic's era, so he didn't get center position on any team.
Now that you've broken it down a bit, I think I mostly agree Kobe's team is the most balanced. I would say that some of these players can shoot 3s just fine, Wade, Iverson, Jordan, Lebron, etc.. if they need to stretch the court. They aren't Reggie Miller/Ray Allen level of lights out shooting, but it's serviceable. Especially on open looks because the defense is looking for post play.
That said, as much as I love Wade, he is one of the weakest players on any of the teams, and combined with Iverson being a bit overrated, that's why I dislike that team the most.
Also, some of these players were a product of their system, imo. Karl Malone is definetly an amazing player, and one of the best of all time for sure, but I've always thought his stats are inflated a little due to the Stockton/Malone combo and how they ran their offense through them for so many years (kinda surprised Stockton isn't on here while I'm on the subject). I don't know how he'd actually stack up against these other players though. Same thing to an extent with Duncan. Again, not saying he's not amazing, but some of that is due to the amazing coach that Popovich is and how the team functions with him. When we are comparing to raw individual talent and overall 'beast' ness, he may be outclassed by Shaq/Wilt/Kareem/Hakeem etc..
One hilarious thing about team 4, they have some of the best rebounders at every position. Westbrook is a great rebounder for a PG, so is Lebron as a SG/SF, Barkley obviously, etc.. I think I like your pick of 3 as the most balanced team, but 4 might just overpower them with size and strength. Lebron can guard quick wings, and so can Westbrook, so other then a quick SF getting past Barkley, I don't see quite the same weakness on defense that you do. So, I guess I'd go
#1 Team 3
#2 Team 4
#3 Team 1
#4 Team 2
But the difference between each is very slight, and any could upset any other.
Now that you've broken it down a bit, I think I mostly agree Kobe's team is the most balanced. I would say that some of these players can shoot 3s just fine, Wade, Iverson, Jordan, Lebron, etc.. if they need to stretch the court. They aren't Reggie Miller/Ray Allen level of lights out shooting, but it's serviceable. Especially on open looks because the defense is looking for post play.
That said, as much as I love Wade, he is one of the weakest players on any of the teams, and combined with Iverson being a bit overrated, that's why I dislike that team the most.
Also, some of these players were a product of their system, imo. Karl Malone is definetly an amazing player, and one of the best of all time for sure, but I've always thought his stats are inflated a little due to the Stockton/Malone combo and how they ran their offense through them for so many years (kinda surprised Stockton isn't on here while I'm on the subject). I don't know how he'd actually stack up against these other players though. Same thing to an extent with Duncan. Again, not saying he's not amazing, but some of that is due to the amazing coach that Popovich is and how the team functions with him. When we are comparing to raw individual talent and overall 'beast' ness, he may be outclassed by Shaq/Wilt/Kareem/Hakeem etc..
One hilarious thing about team 4, they have some of the best rebounders at every position. Westbrook is a great rebounder for a PG, so is Lebron as a SG/SF, Barkley obviously, etc.. I think I like your pick of 3 as the most balanced team, but 4 might just overpower them with size and strength. Lebron can guard quick wings, and so can Westbrook, so other then a quick SF getting past Barkley, I don't see quite the same weakness on defense that you do. So, I guess I'd go
#1 Team 3
#2 Team 4
#3 Team 1
#4 Team 2
But the difference between each is very slight, and any could upset any other.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,153
- 19,740
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
- 7,547
- 11,831
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,153
- 19,740
I'd love to hear how you can justify Bird having a better career than Kobe.
Anyways, it was obviously some weird personal bias against him since it's totally irrelevant. Really, though Wilt should have been highlighted over Magic and Kareem should have been over Kobe AND Bird.
Edit: Outside of that, I agree the teams are put together pretty lazily.
2 pure centers and 3 SGs on team 2? If they have Iverson as PG that's probably a lot worse.
Is Lebron playing the 2 on his team? Or is he running point and Westbrook's the 2?
Davis and Westbrook seem out of place there. Way too early to be putting them in a GOAT matchup like that. Curry should be in there in that case. There's not a team that wouldn't improve by switching a player out with him.
Djay
Trakanon Raider
- 2,344
- 394
There's no bias here except yours...when other Kobe fans are telling you you're being retarded you should probably listen and go do some research. Seriously...this is the dumbest thing I've heard since I left California and someone asked me if Derek Fisher should be in the Hall of Fame. That's how dumb you are if you have Kobe listed above Bird on your all-time list. I'm usually not this nice, but since you're obviously incapable of using google, here are their career averages:
Bird: 24.3 Points, 10.0 Rebounds, 6.3 Assists, 1.7 Steals, 0.8 Blocks, 49.6% FG, 37.6% 3P, 88.6% FT, 3X MVP
Bryant: 25.2 Points, 5.3 Rebounds, 4.8 Assists, 1.5 Steals, 0.5 Blocks, 45.0% FG, 33.1% 3P, 83.7% FT, 1 MVP
If you find an adult to teach you how to look this shit up, you can look up the advanced stats yourself, but that's even more evidence for Bird. The only thing Kobe has is longevity, but even then he's only retiring 2 years older than Bird was. He played more seasons because he came straight out of high school instead of playing 4 years in college, but longevity isn't what this conversation is about or we'd be talking about Robert Parish as the best ever.
Anyway, the burden of proof for this retarded argument was on you, so if you want to try to make your case feel free. You're just going to be digging yourself a bigger hole the longer you hold onto this, though. Bird was a better basketball player than Bryant and there's no serious debate on the subject.
Bird: 24.3 Points, 10.0 Rebounds, 6.3 Assists, 1.7 Steals, 0.8 Blocks, 49.6% FG, 37.6% 3P, 88.6% FT, 3X MVP
Bryant: 25.2 Points, 5.3 Rebounds, 4.8 Assists, 1.5 Steals, 0.5 Blocks, 45.0% FG, 33.1% 3P, 83.7% FT, 1 MVP
If you find an adult to teach you how to look this shit up, you can look up the advanced stats yourself, but that's even more evidence for Bird. The only thing Kobe has is longevity, but even then he's only retiring 2 years older than Bird was. He played more seasons because he came straight out of high school instead of playing 4 years in college, but longevity isn't what this conversation is about or we'd be talking about Robert Parish as the best ever.
Anyway, the burden of proof for this retarded argument was on you, so if you want to try to make your case feel free. You're just going to be digging yourself a bigger hole the longer you hold onto this, though. Bird was a better basketball player than Bryant and there's no serious debate on the subject.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
- 7,547
- 11,831
Thanks, Djay. Someone had to do it.
Sheeeit, don't even have to go into the 'but soandso played in a more difficult era' to make the argument on that one.
Sheeeit, don't even have to go into the 'but soandso played in a more difficult era' to make the argument on that one.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,153
- 19,740
4 years of college accounts for 7 more years? Aside from that obvious math fail, his first 4 years are what bring his numbers down closer to Bird's level. You also convienently left out a lot of things to try and prove your point. Also, keep in mind I said better even though you turned that into "better player" in your frothing at the mouth outrage.
All defensive first team: Kobe 7, Bird 0
Championships: Kobe 5, Bird 3
Kobe's definitely better offensively and defensively. Bird's a better rebounder, passer, and more accurate shooter. They're completely different players from completely different eras so saying one is better than the other is meaningless.
You also completely ignored Kareem who is a far better player than Bird and had a far better career. That's what tells me it's some weird personal bias as someone who actually cared about the topic and not just butthurt that Kobe was getting credit
All defensive first team: Kobe 7, Bird 0
Championships: Kobe 5, Bird 3
Kobe's definitely better offensively and defensively. Bird's a better rebounder, passer, and more accurate shooter. They're completely different players from completely different eras so saying one is better than the other is meaningless.
You also completely ignored Kareem who is a far better player than Bird and had a far better career. That's what tells me it's some weird personal bias as someone who actually cared about the topic and not just butthurt that Kobe was getting credit
Well, to be fair, the other part that helps account for this is the medical advancement and shoe technology. Those guys were practically playing on Keds and then just hopping in the cold tub. Today, these fuckers are getting acupuncture, blood stimulants and more massages than Kobe steers (pun!).
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
- 4,676
- 826
That lebron team is way too stacked. That MJ team is too handicapped. Lebron can distribute almost as well as Magic ever could and having shaq , barkley, and malone means they would never miss a rebound. That shit is way unfair.This has been circulating my facebook and the discussion has been a little slow here.
I'd normally say MJ would still find a way to win.. but with Iverson on his team, I think the odds are stacked too much against him this time.
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
- 4,676
- 826
Bird Kobe team is the only team with two real three point shooters. The rest couldn't penetrate enough to get anything to the hoop or high percentage 2s... However i concede that that Kobe team is the most balanced.
Djay
Trakanon Raider
- 2,344
- 394
I mentioned that he'd be two years older when he retires...depending when their birthdays fall, yes that accounts for 6 of the 7 seasons when you include college you dumb fuck.
But let's look at their defensive abilities since you want to keep digging your hole. Here are the years they were in the Top 10 for Defensive Win Shares and their ranks in the league in parentheses:
Kobe Defensive Win Shares
1999-00 NBA 4.5 (10)
Career NBA 50.2 (43)
Career 50.2 (46)
Bird Defensive Win Shares
1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (27)
Career 59.0 (30)
How about Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Kobe Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Never in Top 10 (In fact, he's been negative nearly every year)
Bird Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1980-81 NBA 3.0 (10)
1981-82 NBA 3.3 (4)
1982-83 NBA 2.9 (8)
1983-84 NBA 3.0 (5)
1984-85 NBA 2.4 (10)
1985-86 NBA 2.8 (10)
Career NBA 2.5 (33)
Career 2.5 (35)
As for offense, Kobe scored more points, but did it a lot less efficiently and wasn't in the same class as a passer or playmaker as I've already shown with base stats in the previous post, but you can also go look at the True Shooting % and PER, VORP, Win Shares...literally any advanced analytics you want to pull out.
Seriously, here are some links...go compare the two:
Kobe Bryant NBA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
Larry Bird NBA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
If you can seriously come back after looking at all of the information at your disposal on those pages and not see clearly that Bird is better than Bryant, then you're hopeless. This isn't about Kareem because Kareem is a Top 10 player in NBA history...you can put him in the same discussion as Bird and I may disagree about where you place the two, but you can make a decent argument. There is no argument for Bryant over Bird, though. I'm done...you're either too dumb or too blind to see the obvious here, so if you want to continue this, I'll let others point out how wrong you are.
But let's look at their defensive abilities since you want to keep digging your hole. Here are the years they were in the Top 10 for Defensive Win Shares and their ranks in the league in parentheses:
Kobe Defensive Win Shares
1999-00 NBA 4.5 (10)
Career NBA 50.2 (43)
Career 50.2 (46)
Bird Defensive Win Shares
1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (27)
Career 59.0 (30)
How about Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Kobe Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Never in Top 10 (In fact, he's been negative nearly every year)
Bird Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1980-81 NBA 3.0 (10)
1981-82 NBA 3.3 (4)
1982-83 NBA 2.9 (8)
1983-84 NBA 3.0 (5)
1984-85 NBA 2.4 (10)
1985-86 NBA 2.8 (10)
Career NBA 2.5 (33)
Career 2.5 (35)
As for offense, Kobe scored more points, but did it a lot less efficiently and wasn't in the same class as a passer or playmaker as I've already shown with base stats in the previous post, but you can also go look at the True Shooting % and PER, VORP, Win Shares...literally any advanced analytics you want to pull out.
Seriously, here are some links...go compare the two:
Kobe Bryant NBA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
Larry Bird NBA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
If you can seriously come back after looking at all of the information at your disposal on those pages and not see clearly that Bird is better than Bryant, then you're hopeless. This isn't about Kareem because Kareem is a Top 10 player in NBA history...you can put him in the same discussion as Bird and I may disagree about where you place the two, but you can make a decent argument. There is no argument for Bryant over Bird, though. I'm done...you're either too dumb or too blind to see the obvious here, so if you want to continue this, I'll let others point out how wrong you are.
DickTrickle
Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
- 13,738
- 16,102
Scottie Pippen has only a slightly worse career three point percentage than Kobe and only chucked up 1.5 less per game in an era of less emphasis on three point shooting. If you're going to count Kobe's volume as evidence of being a real three point shooter, I think Pippen would fit right along there given his also mediocre percentage.
DickTrickle
Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
- 13,738
- 16,102
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
- 4,676
- 826
Chris Paul is 36% from 3 and bird is 37%. Kobe wouldn't get to the hoop enough to be useful against that front court, he couldn't slash and kick because his ass doesn't pass. VS the Lebron team he would be the weakest link. He would do very well against the other teams, since they would get more space to work. Those two teams seem to be ideological differences, 90s bruising vs 2010s pace and space. Lebron would have to be the "point forward" on his team because he is the only one who ever really distributed. Thus he wouldn't get as much offensive shots. But Alley Ooping to Prime Shaq wouldnt be so bad.
Enzee
Trakanon Raider
- 2,197
- 715
If the Lebron team just throws up average percentage 3pt shots.. they got a really good chance to get the offensive rebound and try again though!
Seriously, Westbrook and Lebron shoot 3s 'good enough' to space the floor out at least a little bit on that team. If you just leave them wide open and clog the paint, they will make enough to hurt, and get enough 2nd chance put backs/opportunities with 3 of the best rebounders of all time around the rim.
Lebron and Westbrook will share point guard duties, much like Lebron does on any team he plays. The more I think about their team, I don't think it's as unbalanced as it would seem. Or rather, not in a way that seriously hurts them.
Seriously, Westbrook and Lebron shoot 3s 'good enough' to space the floor out at least a little bit on that team. If you just leave them wide open and clog the paint, they will make enough to hurt, and get enough 2nd chance put backs/opportunities with 3 of the best rebounders of all time around the rim.
Lebron and Westbrook will share point guard duties, much like Lebron does on any team he plays. The more I think about their team, I don't think it's as unbalanced as it would seem. Or rather, not in a way that seriously hurts them.