Office and gaming chairs

Opened a response from Steelcase this morning. Total off the order now at 100 dollars in refund, plus the 15% sale.

Decided to keep the order as they confirmed it's on a shuttle, plus they went the extra mile to credit it again which I didn't expect. The credit processed instantly since I used paypal as the processor.

Embody showed up. First impressions are aggressive lower lumbar. Slightly too low for my back,

Lumbar presses the tailbone area aggressively and I'm about 6'4. It's directly on the tailbone region. You can turn your tailbone away by sitting back in the chair, and avoid some pressure, by sitting back. however, the lumbar remains on the tailbone, regardless.

I can avoid it, distribute weight, etc. That sit test will take place tonight.

Arm rests are an improvement in space over the HON 2.0 big time. They fit much better and let me use my desk better.

"Sit up straight" without using the backrest feels good so far. It's just that lower lumbar needs to come up 1 full inch to 2 inches to really press my lumbar and stay off my tailbone. It's possible I'm too big for the chair.

Sit testing lumbar tailbone pressure aggravation + marathon session later tonight for the seat. Feels pretty good on the legs and nerves so far, but could end up being inferior to the HON 2.0 in terms of seat. I'll see by tomorrow.


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Did 6h in in the Embody straight last night. Managed the lumbar but it's still a good 1 inch off.

I need another session before I give feedback on the seat. So far it's outperforming everything I've ever sat in, in terms of breathability and circulation to the legs. No real soreness on the ass either after just 1 session. I want to get more time in because the Leap was also the best ergonomics and seat at first, and then I couldn't even do 15-20 minutes in it.

Gesture still on the way. YouTube expert reviewer states that the Embody is not for taller people which seems true. The top of the chair is shaped off for my shoulder blades. Is that a big problem? Not in a single session of sitting, but I could see it being a problem over the course of a week. To describe it, the top two points of the chair on the upper back are protrouding into the shoulder blade and lower trapezius area. Not quite enough to complain about the fit, but enough to where I wouldn't spend 1,600 $ - 1,800 on it.

Money is on the Gesture being the keeper, since it's also highly rated for taller people according to the expert reviewers.

I'm really liking the ability Embody gives me to "sit forward" back fully arched, in the seat, leaning away from the backrest sitting toward the keyboard. Full throttle weight down on the seat without feeling the pinch to nerves/circulation. The seat seems to be able to handle pressure from all angles, and will likely be the best seat I have ever sat in regardless of the overall chair working out in the end.

That is pretty impressive, and a standout feature to me immediately. The seat design in the re-designed Embody you also cannot feel any "pixels" or whatever you read about in the reviews. The new padding is decently thick. I'm impressed with the seat, they did a good job with the re-design.

We'll see how marathon session 2 and 3 go today.

Did 6h and 5h in the same day, for 11h of sitting in one day. And then another 5h the next day. And then several more hours on top of that.

I can say the seat indeed kicks ass.... You can sit any way you want and be able to find a comfortable position for the hips, thighs, all that. It's very difficult to sit on any angle that is bad for you. Literally the entire seat is sittable. There is nothing sharp, nothing prodding, no "pixels", no lack of coverage. If you could, you could sit your ass on the side edges of the seat and be comfortable. You can spread your legs however, put your ass in whatever spot on the chair, do whatever you want. There are no limits to this seat. The seat is firm, like all ergonomic seats. Don't buy this and think you're getting a luxury car seat experience. It's not a mattress. You can't just zombie out for several hours and expect not to have to shift your weight, but when you do shift around, it's comfortable.

Very accommodating seat and the best seat I have sat in-- in terms of positions and breathability of nerves and circulation. You can also bounce your ass and legs around even if you prefer, to keep blood moving. You can swing your legs left to right with 0 discomfort on the hip bones or ass. The bounce of the seat is nice.

The lumbar issue "resolved" and the prodding at the top of the backrest resolved after some breaking-in period. It's flexible and my tailbone never got sore. The lumbar is still 1 inch too low for me to really sit properly in the backrest for long periods however. But at least it's not a jabber like I initially thought. It can be ignored.

THAT SAID. The seat and the armrests (lol Embody armrests btw) are the best parts of this chair for me.

The backrest sucks fucking ass for me. Straight up. Unsupportive, wrong kind of support, bad angles for my back, and generally unadjustable. That lumbar not being in the right place basically ruins how I would sit in this backrest. And in no way is it worth the price for this backrest. I'm torn on this one, and hope the Gesture arrives this week so I can make a fast decision with both chairs in my possession.

Lastly, if you are pushing over 6'2, consider another chair. That's not just my opinion firsthand-- but the expert reviewers warn of this as well. The Embody is best for 5'5 to 6'1ish people I'd say. The backrest is mostly un-adjustable and very custom fitted. If you don't have an average to above average height, you will not enjoy this backrest.

Gesture touched down today with no notification of delivery.

Just got it hauled in.

It is the heaviest of all the chairs coming in at around 71lbs. It was brutal to load and unload. Took a few bumps but I got it done. Heart definitely buckled a little at times. It's a common complaint by reviewers that the way the chair is shipped is inappropriate for the size and weight. Herman Miller has horizontal loading, Steelcase is all vertical.

Between that and the car/luggage cart load and unloading-- you need to have some physical strength to deal with the Gesture.

Oblio said:

Makes me wonder if I should have gotten one with a headset.

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The impossible dream my friend.....

Embody seat and fabric (best fabric, easily wins against everything except maybe the Titan Softweave fabric) + Gesture backrest (best in class for taller fellas, Leap beats the Gesture for average fellas) + Gesture headrest (best in class) + Gesture armrests except using the Embody top pads = new successful American company.

It's really too bad the Embody seat design and fabric is patented and impossible to reproduce. There's definitely money on the table in merging these 2 chairs together. They white label licensed it to Logitech, maybe some day they will license out the seat to some other investors for outside production. The Logitech white label deal certainly opened the door to that potential.

That said, it's really nice to sit back in this chair on the 2nd tilt option with the headrest. It's been so long since I've had REAL back support. REAL lumbar. REAL midback support. The Gesture kills it on those fronts. If you don't like the headrest for whatever reason or want it gone, no problem-- the headrest has 2-way movement and can completely be removed from your head/neck and placed behind the chair seat.

Kiroy said:

so it sounds like the gesture wins vs the embody for a 6ft 200lb guy

i've been debating which one to get and have been holding off for you to get your hands on both since you're the resident chair expert

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It comes down to whether you favor backrest support or a nice seat.

I added a flat pillow to the Embody just to see if I can fix the issues for the seat sake, and the issues are still there.

I want to go so far as to say that I have no back support for my spine at all in the Embody. I don't even think I can sit tensed up in a way where the Embody backrest would be able to support my back at all. Even fully tightened up settings-wise, there is no mid-back support. Because it is concave. You can check photos online and see it's clearly concave. So its allowing you to slouch out in the mid-back. I can't overstate that enough. The lack of mid-back on the Embody is baffling. It's concave design I see as a flaw-- not a selling point. The backrest is supposed to "Embody" you, and only succeeds in doing that with a hardcore lumbar and the tippy top of the chair, both of which put force on you. The middle of the backrest makes 0 contact with my back at all really and doesn't help you sit straight or recline. Whether your abs are relaxed, or flexed, the Embody mid-back region is.....non-existent. A pillow in the mid-back area can help you sit up straighter, but at what cost? 1,600 unless you go Logitech and find a 1,000--1,100 deal.

Sitting into the Gesture backrest is like breathing fresh air right away. The bottom lumbar is not aggressive and it favors more of a lower-midback support zone, great for anyone 6'0 and over.

If you want a nice supportive backrest and that's important to you, skip the Embody. My stance on that hasn't changed after several more days of testing. If you only value a really good seat, and you have to have arguably the best seat ever out of all the ergonomic chairs, and that's all that's important to you, try the Embody.

Also, If you have shoulder soreness from operating a mouse without a good support angle, or care about armrests at all, the Gesture is the only chair out of however many chairs I've tested that let me stop straining my shoulder. The Gesture armrests bend that little extra width and angle outward more than any other armrests I've tried and the height adjustment is very precise.

jayrebb said:

Also, If you have shoulder soreness from operating a mouse without a good support angle, or care about armrests at all, the Gesture is the only chair out of however many chairs I've tested that let me stop straining my shoulder. The Gesture armrests bend that little extra width and angle outward more than any other armrests I've tried and the height adjustment is very precise.

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Upper-back/shoulder soreness are my largest complaints about my Titan. I'll be in the market for a new chair once I feel like I've gotten the $500 I wasted on this POS out of it. Probably in the next year or so.

At 6'0'' and 188lbs., it sounds like the Gesture is probably best? I don't care too much about the seat, since I think the Titan seat is uncomfy as fuck and it doesn't really bother my lower back.

Kirun said:

Upper-back/shoulder soreness are my largest complaints about my Titan. I'll be in the market for a new chair once I feel like I've gotten the $500 I wasted on this POS out of it. Probably in the next year or so.

At 6'0'' and 188lbs., it sounds like the Gesture is probably best? I don't care too much about the seat, since I think the Titan seat is uncomfy as fuck and it doesn't really bother my lower back.

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The lumbar of the Embody is in the base of my buttcheeks nearly, then fades away from my actual lumbar as you go up the backrest. By the time you get to lower-mid lumbar region, it evaporates if you prefer sitting up straight. You can slouch out and bend concave with the Embody and feel the mid-back, but this is pretty unhealthy. The whole point is to sit straight. It's also way more slouching than I would normally do, even if I wanted to. It's not a good slouch to make contact with that mid-backrest area. However the lumbar is not hard, and can't cause soreness and doesn't put any force on the tailbone itself.

You can remove some of the concave bend with an adjustment knob to release the 2 prongs on the top of the chair to try to get more contact with the mid-back.




The problem with releasing the top prongs of the backrest is, you just lean away from your entire desk. The only viable sitting position is to keep the prong points forward. This prong region is annoying at first, but it's fully flexible and can't poke or cause any pain. It bends even when fully tightened. You could get used to it if you keep good abs and you yourself do the work and sit up straight on your own. You sit driving your upper back into the top of the backrest and maintain some weak abdominal tension. I'd remain skeptical that a 6'0 person would be able to comfortably make contact with the mid-back without concave slouching out. If you were 5'10 I'd say give the Embody a shot for the seat sake.

I found myself sitting with my ass and my entire lower-mid back off of the Embody, just leaning my upper back into the top prongs only. This is unsustainable for anyone just trying to sit down because it requires you keeping slight ab tension and also proactively driving yourself into the prongs for support.

You can get used to doing the work to sit a certain way in the Embody as a taller guy, but it's learned behavior.

That's the biggest contrast to the Gesture. The Gesture contrast is, you don't need to sit up straight on your own. You sit down and it's done. You never adjust your back in the Gesture.

The Embody is still the best seat for circulation and overall seat comfort on the market. Nothing else even comes close to the Embody seat. The only reason you can even fight with the backrest of the Embody and do all this work and shifting around is because the seat can handle pressure and micro movement in position from any angle and the whole thing is a spring loaded cloud basically. From the back of the seat to the front of the seat there is 0 dropoff in the function of the seat design. Everything has bounce and spring on it. And it's wide as fuck, wider than the Gesture. If you like moving your legs side to side, or like shifting around at all, the Embody seat is the best seat for that. It's a real shame the backrest is atrocious.

More on the seat: the Embody sync fabric won't catch on skin at all. It's more similar to silk. The Gesture will. Can you wear shorts or boxers in the Gesture? Sure, and I did that. But your skin is going to feel it and you can't shift around your legs like you would in the Embody. The Gesture fabric is textured enough to be able to "grab" cloth also. So it'll slightly grab clothing, helping you stay in place, but also catching you sometimes. But at 180lbs, I'd say this is no concern. Catching is a problem the heavier you are. But I'll say it again, if overall seat comfort is a big deal for you, and you don't mind taking some risks with the fit of the backrest, or fighting your backrest daily, try the Embody. 6'0 is really rolling the dice though.

But that's what I mean when I say these are polarizing chairs. The seat and backrest are polar opposites and not even 50% of effectiveness between them. It really felt like 0% or 100% tradeoffs. It wasn't like Oh yeah, the Gesture seat is 50% as good as Embody. It's not. It's a foam seat. It's sittable and I didn't bottom out in it like I did with the Leap. It's fine. I wasn't sitting on metal. At your measurements you'll have 0 problem with the Gesture seat or backrest. Just beware of the fabric thing if this is for home use only and you aren't a guy that wears pants all the time. If you are used to Titan fabric, that's more like Embody fabric. Gesture is more like office chair fabric, durable with longevity.

If you are looking to go to war with a chair to win a seat at the expense of your spinal column and neck possibly, then you go Embody. If you just want to sit down and forget it, or you have any concerns about back problems at all, it's the Gesture.

Someone on reddit said the Embody is "it's like fighting me". And I'd agree with that. It keeps you active, it keeps you moving and fighting-- for better or worse. But you have absolutely no mid-back support, the lumbar is atrociously placed. For big sessions thats completely unsustainable. I can't see anyone enjoying that past 2 weeks, even if the seat is PFP champ.

jayrebb said:

From the back of the seat to the front of the seat there is 0 dropoff in the function of the seat design. Everything has bounce and spring on it. And it's wide as fuck, wider than the Gesture. If you like moving your legs side to side, or like shifting around at all, the Embody seat is the best seat for that. It's a real shame the backrest is atrocious.

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The "wide" seat is one of my biggest complaints about the Titan XL. Really pisses me off because I specifically went with the XL for the wider seat, thinking it'd be "comfier". Turns out, it's for dudes that are lurches and/or fat as fuck and makes a lot of shit uncomfortable for my weight/height. Wish I had gone with the Omega in that regard.

jayrebb said:

More on the seat: the Embody sync fabric won't catch on skin at all. It's more similar to silk. The Gesture will. Can you wear shorts or boxers in the Gesture? Sure, and I did that. But your skin is going to feel it and you can't shift around your legs like you would in the Embody. The Gesture fabric is textured enough to be able to "grab" cloth also. So it'll slightly grab clothing, helping you stay in place, but also catching you sometimes. But at 180lbs, I'd say this is no concern. Catching is a problem the heavier you are. But I'll say it again, if overall seat comfort is a big deal for you, and you don't mind taking some risks with the fit of the backrest, or fighting your backrest daily, try the Embody. 6'0 is really rolling the dice though.

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I'm usually in sweats when lounging around the house. Rarely do I wear shorts in the house.

jayrebb said:

But that's what I mean when I say these are polarizing chairs. The seat and backrest are polar opposites and not even 50% of effectiveness between them. It really felt like 0% or 100% tradeoffs. It wasn't like Oh yeah, the Gesture seat is 50% as good as Embody. It's not. It's a foam seat. It's sittable and I didn't bottom out in it like I did with the Leap. It's fine. I wasn't sitting on metal. At your measurements you'll have 0 problem with the Gesture seat or backrest. Just beware of the fabric thing if this is for home use only and you aren't a guy that wears pants all the time. If you are used to Titan fabric, that's more like Embody fabric. Gesture is more like office chair fabric, durable with longevity.

If you are looking to go to war with a chair to win a seat at the expense of your spinal column and neck possibly, then you go Embody. If you just want to sit down and forget it, or you have any concerns about back problems at all, it's the Gesture.

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I think the Gesture is probably where I'll land. Backrest is of HUGE importance to me. I like the feeling of a chair I can "fall" into. The backrest on my Titan has really done a fucking number on my upper back/shoulders since getting it - fuckin' hate it.

Kirun said:

The "wide" seat is one of my biggest complaints about the Titan XL. Really pisses me off because I specifically went with the XL for the wider seat, thinking it'd be "comfier". Turns out, it's for dudes that are lurches and/or fat as fuck and makes a lot of shit uncomfortable for my weight/height. Wish I had gone with the Omega in that regard.

I'm usually in sweats when lounging around the house. Rarely do I wear shorts in the house.

I think the Gesture is probably where I'll land. Backrest is of HUGE importance to me. I like the feeling of a chair I can "fall" into. The backrest on my Titan has really done a fucking number on my upper back/shoulders since getting it - fuckin' hate it.

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As soon as you sit down in the Gesture, it's providing the support you expect. No special tricks, postures, or positions. For long term spine health that's the play.

Regarding width-- you have to carefully move the Embody between doorways like the Titan XL. I dinged the Embody 3-4 times already and had to wipe paint off the arms and front sides of the seat. It comes within a centimeter of my doorway. Very similar width to the Titan XL. The Gesture I can flip through a doorway without caution and that feels really good to be able to do that.

I was just thinking about how long someone could really fight the Embody. Maybe a month unless you are lucky. For correct supportive ergonomic posture it has to be the Gesture.

Buddy calls me few days ago and tells me some office building getting demoed and some charity group his wife works with got permission and needs help clearing out some of the shit that was left behind. He says there should be a bunch of Herman Miller office chairs and he's gonna rent a uhaul to take a bunch. Im like yeah whatever because my friend always promises big and shit usually never ends up being what he describes. Get there and help the charity move some office tables and shit for a while. Then we start searching for the chairs. This place was massive and it was insane how much shit was left behind. All of the little side offices still had all these nice ass desks and shit. We ended up fitting 65 herman Miller aerons in the uhaul lol. Got 3 in my car. All really good condition, some just had some wear and tear on the armrests. There were probably 200 we had to leave behind, but we only had permission to be there for 2 hours, and the place is getting demoed tomorrow. Insanity. Sucked a dick moving them all tho, those little fuckers are heavy

Kiroy said:

it's been a couple months, any update on your review?

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I feel there's nothing special about the Gesture that you should pay full retail for. The backrest, while good, isn't blow doors off I gotta pay top dollar good.

While the Gesture overall is a good chair and significantly edges out the Leap in seat comfort by a large margin, it lacks the "worth the price" sustainability over a few months. But this is a common sentiment you'll find among feedback on high end ergonomic chairs.

You could eventually come to feel the Gesture is overpriced-- by a few hundred dollars to possibly even several hundred dollars, for what it is.

Crandall's Office Furniture used to have quite a few available. Crandall also does a full remanufacturing process on all of their seats that's pretty highly reviewed.

The Embody backrest is still junk and the seat is still the best seat of any chair I've sat in. You don't even need to sit test an Embody to expose the backrest I noticed. You can just take your hand and press around a little bit on the geometry. Grab the lumbar zone and mid low back area. The strongest part of the lumbar is clearly too low. Anyone with above room temp IQ could tell it's fancy unadustable crap. The video reviews show it in such a flattering light. It's actually hard to rectify the physical experience with the video demonstrations. But more reviewers are starting to note taller people should avoid the Embody for a better fit. A fully adjustable backrest Embody would possibly be worth the 1,600$ someday.

Tldr; price and value per dollar spent is definitely a concern after owning these chairs for awhile.