Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I don't agree with instanced dungeons. There should be enough dungeons available at your level, throughout the game to accommodate enough people. Camp checks and waiting lists were essential. Don't wanna wait? There is a vast open world out there to explore and grind your heart out.

Instanced Dungeons are poisonous to a persistent world. If EQ1 would have had instanced dungeons everyone would queue shit like crush bone, befallen, kurns, najena etc.. all day every day because they were awesome exp/loot. No one would bother to explore commonland orcs, dervish cutthroats, eruds crossing or the amazing treant camp in south karana.

The last point i want to make is that instanced dungeons have a profound effect on the loot market. I like my loots to be rare and valuable.

Burnesto_sl said:

You can still kite or train mobs even if the world is seamless. See: Hunters in WoW.

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I'm not so concerned with kiting or training, I'm more referring to the lack of mob leashing impacting the level of danger a player feels traveling through the world. Obviously, EQ as an example, a level 20 wouldn't dream of running his ass through a level 30 zone with Argo mobs unless they had a death wish or were a monk. In EQ, if you went wandering around you had better have been able to out run or out fight whatever you encountered. Dangerous world blah blah the shit we have been saying since ~2006.

Conversely, for example, take GW2. I have levelled characters in that game just running through zones 10 levels higher than my character collecting POI/discovery xp, with no consequences what so ever. If I get Argo, I dodge roll, mobs leash, out of combat regen kicks in, rinse and repeat. You can 'grind' to max level exploiting the carebear nature of GW2s world in this way. It's ridiculous.

Quaid_sl said:

I'm not so concerned with kiting or training, I'm more referring to the lack of mob leashing impacting the level of danger a player feels traveling through the world. Obviously, EQ as an example, a level 20 wouldn't dream of running his ass through a level 30 zone withArgomobs unless they had a death wish or were a monk. In EQ, if you went wandering around you had better have been able to out run or out fight whatever you encountered. Dangerous world blah blah the shit we have been saying since ~2006.

Conversely, for example, take GW2. I have levelled characters in that game just running through zones 10 levels higher than my character collecting POI/discovery xp, with no consequences what so ever. If I getArgo, I dodge roll, mobs leash, out of combat regen kicks in, rinse and repeat. You can 'grind' to max level exploiting the carebear nature of GW2s world in this way. It's ridiculous.

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Please tell me more about these Argo mobs. They sound scary. Do they look anything like Ben Affleck?

Quaid_sl said:

a level 20 wouldn't dream of running his ass through a level 30 zone with Argo mobs unless they had a death wish or were a monk.

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Dude, you're so full of it. I ran through Emerald Jungle on my shaman at like... level 18. You got a SOW and you hugged the walls. There was almost 0 danger doing that.

The Edge_sl said:

Please tell me more about these Argo mobs. They sound scary. Do they look anything like Ben Affleck?

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Argo was a good movie, but shouldn't have won Best Picture. Life of Pi was the significantly better movie.

@Khane I ran from Mysty Thicket to Qeynos on my level 2 or 3 Halfling. Doable, but certainly a bit scary.

You don't always have sow, invis and a short zone wall

Those runs were doable but certainly not easy by any means. Sure you could get SoW and hug the wall but all it took was one roamer to stun ya and if they didn't outright one shot ya, you were usually so low on health that sow meant jack shit because of the reduced movement penalty from low health that you were dead next round anyway.

Kreugen_sl said:

Heh, a thread taking over where EQ:Next left off prior to the big reveal.

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well, when the big reveal actually revealed a MMO that is the video game equivalent of "the adventures of pluto nash" that's what happens.

Utnayan_sl said:

With that said, there is no second coming of Christ with McQuaid. You people are delusional if you think anything will come out of this. Relic designers stuck in old hat design may be fine for about 500 people clamouring for that game (until they play it for a week, realize they cannot go AFK for 5 minutes to bottle feed their kids, and uninstall thinking "Boy this sure was easier when I sat on my ass all day after a rough 3 hour college day") but it won't sustain. Needless to say there is a big difference in developing a game in 1997 basically doing nothing more than bringing Diku-Mud to a graphical world (Not to say that was an easy feat back then) and developing a game today with substance, strategy, and persistence.

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Maybe nothing will come out of this but you're wrong if you think there's only a handful of people that want a "hardcore" MMO. How many average MMO players do you know that prefer Vanilla WoW over any other version? That's all I hear from friends who played WoW back in the day but never played EQ. Not to mention the most populated private servers are some variation of Vanilla. I never played EQ back in the day either and I am totally done with quest-based leveling, it was novel in 2004 but it's so incredibly tedious and boring 10 years later. Leveling in VG or Aion(pre-nerfs) with a static group was 10x more fun than leveling in Rift or now FFXIV.

I suspect Brad's tweets coincide with what Eldritch(sp?) posted a few weeks back about proposing a hardcore EQ game to Smed. If that's true then I think the game will be much more narrowly focused than Vanguard was. Less pie in the sky and more meat and potatoes group content.

Running through... Not running around

GW2 is easy on the travel, waypoints everywhere and dodging gives everyone two outs before they are danger. However you have massive nostalgia going on regarding EQ travel. It's difficult for newbies (We've all been there) or people that are distracted somehow. Auto-run and getting beer might get you killed in GW2 too. If you are actually at the keyboard and intent on surviving? Naked, no EB, no invis run to Ssra - No problem. Same in Western Wastes, same in Innothule, same in most zones in EQ. The difficult parts were the confined spaces (dungeons or stuff like Kael) and some select zones like Maidens Eye (just because you only take so many ranged harmtouches while naked).

That said, the problem isnt that you can avoid the mobs. The problem is that there is no consequence/penalty for death and convenient respawn points every 10 steps.

Rhuobhe_sl said:

I don't agree with instanced dungeons. There should be enough dungeons availableat your level, throughout the game to accommodate enough people. Camp checks and waiting lists were essential. Don't wanna wait? There is a vast open world out there to explore and grind your heart out.

Instanced Dungeons are poisonous to a persistent world. If EQ1 would have had instanced dungeons everyone wouldqueueshit like crush bone, befallen, kurns, najena etc.. all day every day because they were awesome exp/loot. No one would bother to explore commonland orcs, dervish cutthroats, eruds crossing or the amazing treant camp in south karana.

The last point i want to make is that instanced dungeons have a profound effect on the loot market. I like my loots to be rare and valuable.

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I think a solution like mentoring, downleveling or what else to make the whole game world available and meaningful is very important to alleviate the issue of funneling everyone in just a few max level zones. GW2 does it very well, and while it's generally on the easy side I did some map completion on a character this week and enjoyed it because it wasnt just faceroll one-shot whole packs and I got craft mats I needed as well as level 80 loot (which in gw2 is mostly useless but thats another problem).

On the second bolded point, EQ had instances before 2004 and it was ok. I dont want them but I can deal with games offering them to solve population problems. Queuing up from a cozy inn near the auction house and bank can die in a fire though, I want an MMO world and not a lobby game.

Am I seriously arguing the point here that non leashing mobs create a more dangerous environment than leashing ones? Am I in the twilight zone?

Also, I don't have massive EQ nostalgia. I play classic EQ everyday on p99. If I tried to run my level 18 Iksar through the Overthere without hugging zone walls, I would be a corpse, no question about it.

Kreugen_sl said:

Heh, a thread taking over where EQ:Next left off prior to the big reveal.

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Think of it more as a virtual padded room for delusional masochists.

I always enjoyed running through high-level zones as a lowbie character. Going to the planes prior to the level requirement as a lowbie to scoop up rot = the best.

Utnayan_sl said:

Think before posting.

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I hate to be a downer, but it'll suck.

Stone_sl said:

hate to be a downer

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I don't believe that.

Stone_sl said:

it'll suck

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I believe that.

Agraza_sl said:

I believe that.

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It'll suck or end up as vaporware if Brad's completely in charge. It all depends on whether he gets a yes-man Producer, or someone who can hold his feet to the fire.

@Utnayan - nobody wants the true full metal jacket hardcore MMO. Thus the repeated comments on soloability in this thread. People do want death penalties, an end to loot pinatas, slower leveling and "required" dungeon grouping - in the sense that while leveling up the best stuff is found in non-instanced dungeons and that "best stuff" is going to last a while or even forever (manastone).