Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Basically, yeah. The primary complaint that most EQ-nostalgia crew folks have comes entirely from the weird concept that people no longer socially interact with other people. They will cite the McQuest nature of most modern games; they will point at the "lobby" mentality of standardized hubs; they will jump up and down and rail against modern mmorpg players for being too casual and not real players. And they would be completely wrong. The most common argument that I have posited against the mmo hipsters has always been that literally -exactly- what they claim is lacking from modern games is still 100% present in... modern games. Because I have actually played the vast majority of non-shit(read: korean) mmorpgs on the market and have been doing so for the last 15+ years. I can log into any of a dozen+ games today and start socially interacting with people, and they will reciprocate. In every. Single. Game.

The issue is that without being forced to, many of the mmo-hipster crew will not. They assume if they are being forced to, then everyone else should be forced to as well. And then they wrongly assume that if they are not being forced to, that everyone else will not interact if not forced to. Has never been right and will never be right, but it is a cornerstone to the mmo-hipster crowd.

People still prefer their friends list and fellow guildies to any outsiders for doing any type of content. They will still group with random people if neither of the above is available. This happens literally constantly in every mmorpg ever made. But the mmo-hipsters think it died with EQ.(because EQ is dead)

Basically, aiming for the "old school" market is aiming at people who have no idea what the hell it is that they want, and they can't get around the fact that it exists within modern games in exactly the same capacity it did before. Except that instead of having almost literally every mmorpg player in the (western)world playing one game, there are options and people migrate towards games that fit their playstyle. Pantheon as originally pitched was tilting at windmills that only existed within the fevered minds of completely delusional people.

Good work, Mr. McQuaid!

Theres a huge difference from needing people to progress thru 90% of the content, and being able to do it solo. That need to help or be helped establishes a different social atmosphere.

If you really think things are the same today than they were a 15 years ago, I question whether you've actually played an mmo in 5 years. Cause I've tried em all, and they're awful.

You have to have a pretty narrow definition of what an MMO should be to declare that you've tried them all and they're awful. I find it hard to believe that any fan of the genre, and not just one game, can't find something out there worth playing. In fact, I thought I was the old crotchety fuck in the room until I started reading how down on the genre some of you guys are. There is more variety out there now than there has ever been, if you can't find something to like it seems like a you problem and not a genre problem. And as far as needing people and establishing a different social atmosphere the only thing that has changed is that instead of the developers forcing you to socialize and form bonds to succeed they've put the onus on you to take some personal initiative and do it yourself.

Dullahan_sl said:

Theres a huge difference from needing people to progress thru 90% of the content, and being able to do it solo. That need to help or be helped establishes a different social atmosphere.

If you really think things are the same today than they were a 15 years ago, I question whether you've actually played an mmo in 5 years. Cause I've tried em all, and they're awful.

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Once you get past the traditional 30 or so hours of leveling most mmorpgs are 90% or higher forced grouping for meaningful advancement.

Quaid_sl said:

Honestly... have some of you people even played an MMORPG in the last 5 years? The frequent comments like this make me believe otherwise. This is just a general rant, and I'm not picking on you personally Miele.

There are MMORPGs where LFR does not exist. Some of these MMORPGs have a dungeon finder, and guest what? Even if they do exist not everybody uses them. There are still people standing around camp fires manually LFG. I know because I do it every day. In fact, it is the agreed upon MOST EFFECTIVE means of finding a decent group in the games I frequent. Guilds still form and plan raid schedules. People still form deep and meaningful online relationships in many many many games. There are MMORPGs that have uninstanced PVP. There are MMORPGs with public dungeons, that have respawning boss MOBs with specific loot tables. There are MMORPGs with robust local player driven economies that exist outside of global auction houses. Yeah, quests have markers. Big fucking deal. Everyone who completed their epic without checking out castersrealm/allakhazam please raise your hand. *crickets*

Seriously. You haven't played an MMORPG in years. Give it up. Those of us that have, don't believe you if you say otherwise. Stop lying to yourselves and everyone around you. It's fucking weird.

MMORPGs have always been, and will always be, exactly what you make of them.

/rant off

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Not calling you out - just honestly want to know what MMOs you are talking about. I still hop into LOTRO some, and I know that's one where people still form groups manually and build relationships (and also uninstanced PVP, except it's PvMP, and I've never ever played it). Curious as to what others there are - especially ones with public dungeons (or is it just ESO? I heard it had that.).

Almost all of them.

You know what was awful? Sitting around the entrance to a zone while watching TV for 3 hours waiting for a group spot to open up in Lguk, Seb, SolB, KC, what not. There are give and takes to a slow content leveling curve and group centric content in a pure static environment. The take is it is more social and community building, when combined with class interdependence.

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I don't have the time anymore but I don't consider it "awful". I had a lot of fun sitting around because I never just sat around. I spoke to people, ran around and did side quests, helped people (I was a cleric so I did rez runs later on), tradeskilled, etc. To me, this is what needs to be fixed. Replicate the class interdependencies, community building, etc. without creating a time sink or wasted time?

I agree there are gives and takes. To me, you lose too much of what defines the genre. If that's not what's popular anymore, then so be it. We just have to live with the fact that companies to not find this as marketable to a larger audience and we simply are not our 10-15 year ago selves.

Utnayan_sl said:

You know what was awful?

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Yeah, we get where you are going and you're right that there are a lot of options now that didn't exist in EQ's "Golden Era." But that's not really why people tolerated/played/enjoyed EQ. I didn't play EQ because there wasn't anything else to do or because my options were limited. I played EQ because I enjoyed the hell out of it and I was a certified fucking addict.

I can tell you there were times I had *plenty* to do and turned it down to stare at my little CRT monitor waiting for my mana to regen. Go camping this weekend? Go to a movie? Go to the party my room mates are literally having in my house downstairs? Hang out with my GF? Nah. I'll play EQ.

My EQ years had absolutely zero to do with content accessibility and I know I'm far from alone.

I didn't mind killing time LFG.. Shit I did, quading(To this day, I miss quading in games,) checking the AC camp for Jboots/other random named camps, made $$ porting people, dumpster dived, bought low/sell high at Bazaar and a ton of shit i'm probably forgetting. Making $$ was just as important to me as gaining levels.

Utnayan_sl said:

Yep and that is all well and good too obviously. How much was tied to the social aspect then?

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Are you asking how much of why I played EQ was because it was a social mmog? As opposed to a single player game?

I can't tell, is UT shitting up this thread?

Bruman_sl said:

Not calling you out - just honestly want to know what MMOs you are talking about. I still hop into LOTRO some, and I know that's one where people still form groups manually and build relationships (and also uninstanced PVP, except it's PvMP, and I've never ever played it). Curious as to what others there are - especially ones with public dungeons (or is it just ESO? I heard it had that.).

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Yeah it's ESO that has public dungeons, but they don't rival the size or complexity of the ones in EQ or Vanguard. Some of the ones in Craglorn are cool though, and Imperial Sewers is friggin awesome.

ArcheAge is another modern MMORPG that you should really give a try, but it doesn't have public dungeons. Crazy player economy and pvp though.

EQ was the world's first social media experience...?

First, let's argue EQ was a fraction of even the potential MMO market because the game sucked. Then, let's argue EQ was the entire fucking world's first social media experience. When in reality, we went elseware for the actual 'media' part of it for years because EQ had jack-and-shit for forums or external chat or anything that wasn't clunky, in-game communication.

Although, I do remember after EQ launched UO finally implemented chat, and AOL/Yahoo/ICQ were lucky enough to build their messengers and chat rooms based EQ tech, and it was awesome to see EQ feature people interacting socially in movies like You've Got Mail.

EQ may have invented being a dick (EZBoard not so easy?!) and calling people fags on message boards, though, so there's that.

In reality, EQ was pretty shitty for social interaction. You had to load a fucking 3D, internet required interface just to chat with people... who were all pretending to be fantasy characters! Without socializing, EQ wouldn't have been as big a success. But without EQ online social interaction would have been just fine.

Let me guess, there's some highly contrived definition of 'connected social media experience' that only pertains to trying to win arguments about EQ.

Convo_sl said:

I can't tell, is UT shitting up this thread?

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Not ever! He's more of an enabler than an actual shitter.

EQ's med/regen times probably did more to kill it than anything. Lfg, corpse runs, bugs, whatever. It was sitting in one spot after every kill for minutes at a time that sucked. I remember running from Qeynos to Freeport and not regenning jack shit for mana until I sat down and did nothing.

Utnayan_sl said:

Yep. How much do you feel you played because you were excited to get back with a group of people or meet new people.

(There is a method to the madness)

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I think I understand what you're saying: A lot of people played EQ to get a social "fix" because the options to get that type of social fix were far more limited then than they are now. They played to make friends and meet people and talk and socialize, etc etc. I think you're right. A lot of people did. But that's not why I played and, like I said, I'm far from alone. Plenty of people that played EQ had plenty of alternate options to get social fixes- that's not why they were playing. They were playing because it was a great game.