Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Denault, I know you worked on VG for a while.. I'd like your opinion on all of this if you don't mind? I understand if you're too close to it to give that kind of feedback..
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I can always tell it for the masses again since I have no affiliation. But it has already been posted about 50 times over the last 3 years so I have no idea how anyone who posts here doesn't know about the scoop already.
Either way, like Denaut says, the problem has never been about design ideas. It's actual implementation, and the relics fall down on thisevery ... single.... time.
But to make matters worse, they talk about the design ideas as if they have been implemented, or spin it so it appears they have, and what we get is another unrealized potential behind washed up MUD designers unable (Creatively OR Implemented) to break themselves out of it. Crying for the money of 1999. Going back to the same corner for cheese, and wondering why it isn't there any more. Over... and over... and over... and over again.
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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I kind of got the vibe he was alluding to a bit more than the general knowledge stuff UT..let the man speak! we do have new people on here anyway..
Rogosh
Lord Nagafen Raider
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tad10
Elisha Dushku
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By all accounts EQ Design Doc and EQ Vanilla were pretty close. -_- But Brad does get the old cheese for VG.
Denaut
Trump's Staff
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Sorry, ended up being quite busy today (still am, but taking a little break).
Tad said,
For the sake of explanation I am going to divide the "visions" up into 2 types, positive and negative. The positive ones were ideas about things the game was going tohave, so that means things like many races, many classes, a gigantic open world, the 3 spheres, fellowship system, caravan system, and so on. The negative ideas were things the gamewasn'tgoing to have or be, so stuff like binding and level restrictions on gear, fast travel, WoW style quests, instancing, an light death penalties, fast to max level, etc.
For the most part, the positive ideas went into the final game and the negative ideas didn't. Now, I can't really attribute every idea directly to Brad, because I wasn't there for the start of things but that was the state of the game when I joined. And, essentially, in a couple of sentences I summed up the total of the design I was given when I got there. None of it was really useful, the design was all just super abstract mandates or non-actionable fluff. The reason most of the negative things were tossed out was because they were "solutions" (how good is debatable) to some very real and very intractable problems that you should see coming a mile away. In retrospect the game needed a much more radical reexamination than the one it was given, but the designers toiling away on the game by that point were untrained newbies. We were floundering for anything that could be done quickly and easily so we could get on with finishing the game.
Tad said,
Keeping in mind I only worked on the project for maybe half its tenure, this is a simplification and like most simplifications it is sort of right and sort of wrong.
For the sake of explanation I am going to divide the "visions" up into 2 types, positive and negative. The positive ones were ideas about things the game was going tohave, so that means things like many races, many classes, a gigantic open world, the 3 spheres, fellowship system, caravan system, and so on. The negative ideas were things the gamewasn'tgoing to have or be, so stuff like binding and level restrictions on gear, fast travel, WoW style quests, instancing, an light death penalties, fast to max level, etc.
For the most part, the positive ideas went into the final game and the negative ideas didn't. Now, I can't really attribute every idea directly to Brad, because I wasn't there for the start of things but that was the state of the game when I joined. And, essentially, in a couple of sentences I summed up the total of the design I was given when I got there. None of it was really useful, the design was all just super abstract mandates or non-actionable fluff. The reason most of the negative things were tossed out was because they were "solutions" (how good is debatable) to some very real and very intractable problems that you should see coming a mile away. In retrospect the game needed a much more radical reexamination than the one it was given, but the designers toiling away on the game by that point were untrained newbies. We were floundering for anything that could be done quickly and easily so we could get on with finishing the game.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Original VG had pretty slow leveling and a decent death penalty so I think those made it in - the XP curve was then abandoned by SOE. VG quests at start were fine because it was much less go to this area at 30, this area at 40, etc. There was a lot less direction, and a lot more choose-your-own-adventure. Sure there were quest hubs, but not every area had a quest hub and if you didn't like the lay of the land you could find somewhere more interesting to quest. You weren't stuck in STV from 30-45.
But the gear level restrictions and BOE bullshit that were in at the beginning were very annoying. As you note they were solutions to the problem of the loot pinata - but of course one of VG's big mistakes was buying into the loot pinata approach to gear. A better solution was EQ's less is more theory of itemization. Interesting to see if VG 2.0 makes the same mistakes.
Heard it from some insider sources that a veritable MMOG Dream Team has been assembled for this game, including:
- Lead Engine Programmer from Vanguard
- Lead Netcode Programmer from Warhammer Online
- Lead Character Modeler for original EQ2 models
- Lead QA from Shadowbane
- Lead UI developer from FFXIV first release
- Chief Financial Officer from 38 studios
- Lead Engine Programmer from Vanguard
- Lead Netcode Programmer from Warhammer Online
- Lead Character Modeler for original EQ2 models
- Lead QA from Shadowbane
- Lead UI developer from FFXIV first release
- Chief Financial Officer from 38 studios
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I'd be more interested if Brad hadn't made it clear already that there's a tie back to SOE. Until Smed goes, SOE is a lost cause.
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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Well.. to be fair, I think he's referring to the EQN/EQL tech and that's probably it. Maybe the VG IP..I did ask him about that a few weeks back and he said something along the lines of maybe one day.. I know you're not as optimistic about all this as I am but it's a relationship that needs to exist at this point for us to get anything remotely close to a PvE niche game in the spirit of EQ/VG. It makes a lot of sense for both sides if you stop and think about it.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Rhuobhe
N00b
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Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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That wouldn't work. I am actually honest and don't spin shit.
Q: "What can you tell us about questing?"
A: "It's collect 10 bear asses disguised as collecting something else."
Q: "What can you tell us about PvP?"
A: "PvP isn't in the game, and should it ever be, it will most likely be a balancing nightmare so don't expect much."
Q: "Will this bring back the feeling of EverQuest?"
A: "Yes. Remember when you couldn't log in and saw a half finished game? That wrench in your gut that you have just been conned about of 50 bucks again like the last 10 years? Expect both of those feelings to return."
Q: "What is it like working with Brad McQuaid?"
A: "It's like watching that spoiled brat at Target screaming until it gets it's icecream cone and once it does, it calms down until it sees baseball cards and throws the icecream cone at a stranger. The kid is Brad, the icecream cone is the "vision", that stranger is you, and those baseball cards are your wallet.
Q: "What is it like being community manager?"
A: "In all honesty I am about to be fired because I am not a mouthpiece for Peter Molyneux has been no nothings that can't shit out a creatively graph paper'd dungeon much less possess the ability to create a game. And I am too honest and hate seeing people spun right round faster than a one hit wonder for Dead or Alive. Oops. Time to get my box. See ya."
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Hah nice man! I think Brad is going to prove you wrong on this one. Let's hope so b/c we need something. I don't really want anything new so to speak. Just something along the line of EQ.. Looking forward to seeing who is on the team.
This game being a big hit could really change the direction of the market in regards to what projects get funded.
This game being a big hit could really change the direction of the market in regards to what projects get funded.