Tad doesn't know what he's talking about, especially when he makes assertions like this.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
Flake
Golden Knight of the Realm
- 198
- 189
Fuck flying mounts right off. Bring back the sense of adventure or community where you have to ask your local wizard or druid for a port or sow. And if you were unlucky, it was time to wait for the boat and hike your slow ass there on jboots.
Bring back that! And for people who say they don't have time for that, or it's boring... go fuck yourself.
Bring back that! And for people who say they don't have time for that, or it's boring... go fuck yourself.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
No. This game only succeeds if Brad & co. stay focused. Fucking around building a seemless world is not staying focused, it just adds art costs, development time and debug/qa time without increasing the fun factor. Zoned are cheaper, more efficient and more than sufficient for fun game play. People seem to forget that for all intents and purposes Vanilla Wow was zoned, Blizzard just used memory tricks to make the zone transition seemless (instead of EQ wait, loading). So again no, Seemless world bullshit was a key killer of Vanguard. If you don't learn from the past you're doomed to repeat it.There are ways around that. Shroud of the Avatar is crowd sourcing their development to help build-up their art assets. This is one of the advantages of using Unity. Broaden your horizons son.
Not to sound ignorant, but how does instancing a zone take any less art then having it be a seamless transition into the next zone? I think you are confusing it. VG spent a ton because of the obnoxious size of the world (this might be where the art cost thing is comming from?)
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
- 28,573
- 45,202
Yeah, you need to explain why seamless is 5x more. Everquest 1 would have been seamless had the engine been technologically powerful enough. It's not like they made zones to "save art money".
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,395
- 289
I share the impression that you're too burned by Vanguard when it comes to the topic 'seemless word', Tad10. Vanguard was a textbook example of sinking the ship, that doesnt have to be the case again.
That said, I would prefer zones for Pantheon. Not because of costs but because it is easier to add content in between later on (if they structure their zone layout smart that is).
That said, I would prefer zones for Pantheon. Not because of costs but because it is easier to add content in between later on (if they structure their zone layout smart that is).
Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
- 14,392
- 36,659
Zones never bothered me in EQ, and never detracted from my feeling of it being an actual world I was exploring. It also has the added bonus, as Mr Creed states, of allowing the designers to quite easily add new content into existing areas, if they design their zones well. In fact, that's something the original EQ did poorly. There were TONS and TONS of places in the three initial continents they could have added more content, with the right overall design from the start.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
I'm surprised this is open to question. VG was seemless and cost 5x more than EQ. Majority of which was spent on art. EQ - 8 million. VG - 40 to 45 million. What the hell other proof do you need?
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet:
A unique starting area for each race. EQ did this right, and so did WoW. Everything else essentially just didnt even consider this or something. Rift, AoC,Aion ect
You dont have to have 12 races and 12 starting zones, some of them can be shared IE High/Wood Elves in Gfay from EQ and Gnomes/Dwarves from WoW. As long as the lore supports the races starting in the same area, then excellent.
It REALLY kills the alt experience when you have to go through the EXACT same content over and over again, its mind numbing and dull. Get to level X and decide you dont really like your Troll Nutstomper as much as you thought? Great! Go through X levels of the SAME content AGAIN WOO!!
There are/were countless players from these games that would roll alts just to check out the noob zones and cities. Adding a city/zone for each race adds many layers of flavor to a game. It also keeps people in the game by encouraging players to roll new characters to check out the world instead of having them dread going through the same stuff over again.
A unique starting area for each race. EQ did this right, and so did WoW. Everything else essentially just didnt even consider this or something. Rift, AoC,Aion ect
You dont have to have 12 races and 12 starting zones, some of them can be shared IE High/Wood Elves in Gfay from EQ and Gnomes/Dwarves from WoW. As long as the lore supports the races starting in the same area, then excellent.
It REALLY kills the alt experience when you have to go through the EXACT same content over and over again, its mind numbing and dull. Get to level X and decide you dont really like your Troll Nutstomper as much as you thought? Great! Go through X levels of the SAME content AGAIN WOO!!
There are/were countless players from these games that would roll alts just to check out the noob zones and cities. Adding a city/zone for each race adds many layers of flavor to a game. It also keeps people in the game by encouraging players to roll new characters to check out the world instead of having them dread going through the same stuff over again.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,792
- 664
We did kind of talk about this. Overall we were hoping for 3-4 staring areas. You're 100% right tho. I agree!
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
- 28,573
- 45,202
Are you trolling?
Everquest was zoned.
Vanguard was seamless.
Vanguard cost 5x more than EQ.
Vanguard spent most of its money on art.
Seamless therefore costs more than zones because of those art charges.
Is this really what your brain is telling you when taking all of the above into account?
I think if we're being honest with ourselves we know that we're not going to get a game here that only the highest of the high computers can run. Assuming there are zone lines in Pantheon, how long could the loading time realistically be, especially with SSDs? If making good content with zones is cheaper or easier and allows Brad to free up resources for other aspects of the game, then he should do it.
Xaxius
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 532
- 149
How about they just build all the zones and sew them together after? Point being, there are obviously other ways to skin a cat. Not to mention you completely ignore size in your water-tight equation. If Brad & Co focus on a smaller landmass than say the three ridiculous continents they had in Vanguard, it will obviously be cheaper. Combine that with crowd-sourcing content development and it's very doable.
Whidon
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 1,880
- 2,906
Given we know it's using Unity we know it won't be super comp demanding already.
But yeah could someone explain the benefits of zones vs seamless? I had no idea it made a significant performance difference.
Hateyou
Not Great, Not Terrible
- 17,771
- 47,991
If they could have made a seamless world without the glaring fucking seams, I would have been very pleased with it too. VG did a lot of things great, seamless was not one of them.
