Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Quests are fine. Quests are pretty great in fact.



I don't know any MMOs that have very many quests in them.

Most just have tasks



Synonymous with chore? That's weird...

Yeah, for sure. It's a good idea to differentiate. MMOs definitely did get pretty task-oriented over time. Actual long, involved, story-driven quests are definitely fun. Most tasks suck.

Some task stuff isn't terrible, it's all how it's done.

For example, I hate the tasks that have you running around a huge outdoor area looking for a specific type of bear so you can kill them and turn in their bear asses for a bullshit reward. However, quests like the gnoll fang quest in Blackburrow never bothered me. I think it's because you could collect gnoll fangs while doing something you would be doing anyway- i.e. exploring BB. I'd run through BB for fun and loot anyway, so being able to turn in a bunch of fangs for a reward afterwards was just bonus. On the other hand, I would never normally be running around aimlessly outdoors looking for a special kind of bear, so that just ended up being a pain in the balls.
 
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Pharazon2

Trakanon Raider
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After i read your first couple sentences about most tasks sucking but some not sucking the first thing i immediately thought of (before reading the last paragraph) was gnoll fangs too. Its been near 20 f'ing years and those first tasks we did in EQ (fangs, bandit sashes, CB pads) I still look back at as a better model than the contrived, menial BS almost all MMO's since have put us through. I would love to see a game full of these type of tasks at all levels, then throw in some real exploratory-driven (not hand-holding driven) quests like the stuff they seem to be trying to implement with the perception system.
 
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Jarek

Molten Core Raider
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Yeah, collecting items to turn in should be organic, not forced. You want to hear "Hey! I got the last bear-anus I needed, cool." Not, "Fuck, I just need one more 'Pristine bear-anus.' Goddamit, another 'ruined bear-anus?' Fuck this quest!"

Modern MMOs just traded spawn camping for quest item gathering. Instead of waiting in one spot, now you jump around like a 12-year-old on Adderall while waiting in a large spot. If they can manage to make the item gathering a seamless background activity while you dungeon crawl or explore, that's awesome, but killing the same mobs over and over to collect items that rarely drop is just another form of grinding/spawn camping.

On another note, I don't like the direction Pantheon is going with their combat. This isn't the EQ with modern graphics I was hoping for. Looks like some VG tards got in there and are steering the game more in that direction. Short duration buffs/debuffs, combat-activated attacks triggering buffs for enchanter, very button mashy and spammy, with rotations etc. Not my cuppa tea but I'm sure the VG refugees will love it.

There's this misconception that everyone wants to be DPS for some reason. I don't want to do direct damage to a mob, I want to do control and support. That's just a lost concept in gaming these days. Anyway, just my opinion, and I kinda liked Disciple in VG which was attacking/healing, but it was so fucking spammy. I just don't enjoy frenetic button mashing gameplay.
 
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mkopec

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I mean, they have something there. Sure not everyone is into the old school EQ thing, but im sure many will be, even newer mmo players that never experienced it will check it out, im sure and more than some will stick around for the drama and the inter server shit. Lets hope it gets finished and polished up. MMO ville is fucking THIRSTY for something new, and whiule this model is definitely not new, its tried and tested and EQ is still going strong some 20 fucking years later, especially with the TLP servers.

One thing that worries me though is the content. Without instancing, even like the TLP servers do it, they need a lot of content to satisfy a whole server full of folks.
 

zinc_turtle

Trakanon Raider
81
152
... Short duration buffs/debuffs, combat-activated attacks triggering buffs for enchanter, very button mashy and spammy, with rotations etc. Not my cuppa tea but I'm sure the VG refugees will love it. ...
Finally made an account to support this point.

It's called Duty Cycle, and VR does not seem to understand the impact. Looking through the skills (yes, great, pre-alpha whatever, don't put badly designed broken shit into pre-alpha) with the duration/re-use timers, 6 seconds with a 180 second re-use? 12 seconds with a 60 second re-use, but wait, it's a consumable, and you can miss, but it doesn't reset the re-use timer, but it sure burns the consumable! Yaaay.

Warriors: Angering Blow: 8s CD, 12 second dur. Bash, 6s CD, Strike of Breaking, 16s CD, 12s dur? ummm.. OK? Kick, 6s CD, Taunt, 3s duration, 8s cooldown? Three seconds? Really?

I get the desire for self-flagellation punitive mechanics. I understand the appeal to the grinders, campers and the caffeine addicts. But at the start, to have such short duration buffs, effects, and such repetitive short rotations? Kill me now, it'll be faster. There are guidelines, thresholds even, under which and over which, players HATE Duty Cycle.
Re-applying status effects every 3-6 seconds is obscene. Inevitably, the GCD makes it so you can't keep it up 100%, even though, the intent is, keep it up 100%, c'mon, what's wrong with you?!
Even things like unique class buffs. Just make them zone wide or LOS group auras. I don't need to be recasting that HP buff that only I can cast, every 8.2 minutes. If I'm the only class that has it, having me here is enough. Aura. Done.

If the intent is to have everyone using autohotkey macros just to use all their sub 10 second abilities, when Time-To-Kill is well over a minute? Mission accomplished? Say hello to RSI, he'll be here a while. It's great to see they're making progress, but Joppa should be ashamed of these Duty Cycles. It's like he's intentionally putting abilities in place that are so intentionally and grossly overpowered that the nerfs are guaranteed. I mean a 75% duty cycle 50% self haste for rogues? You already burned them on smoke and mirrors, now Blackjack Kick? /smh
 
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DickTrickle

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
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There's good reason to believe Brad loves VG more than EQ and this game seems to be reflecting that.
 
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Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I think VG was a better "game" than EQ, but this of course brings up all the fun "EQ was a game!" arguments.

It was a chatroom for 9/10ths of players. VG was an actual game.
 
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mkopec

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Did they say something in the stream about these abilities getting changed/nerfed from earlier streams?

Yes they did, again and again they said they are working on and adding core systems first and will be adjusting things accordingly going forward. That one dude that was the enc specifically called out the mezzez not lasting long enough. Either way im sure this will go through many skill balance patches from pre alpha to release. Probably more so when the beta starts up and they have thousands playing and testing. I mean its silly to think this game will remain like it is from here on out and bitching about "duty cycles" in a pre alpha game.
 
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BoozeCube

The Wokest
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Rise of the fallen.

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MMO_Wolf_McQuaid.jpg
 
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Nullify

Trakanon Raider
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18
Joppa mentioned in the Cohh stream that they received early feedback from testers that the pace of combat felt way too spammy and spastic and they toned it down when they introduced the endurance system, so it makes you wonder how bad it was before. That said, I'll reserve judgement on that until I'm actually able to play. There were moments in the streams where it definitely felt quick and there were moments where the pacing seemed fine. It might be a case of an inexperienced player hitting abilities that they really don't need to be using all the time or it might actually just be too fast, but that's difficult for me to tell from the gameplay we've seen so far. We're not gonna see a return to the days of early EQ melee combat where you had an 8s kick/punch, some 30m discs and the rest was just autoattack. Hopefully they can find a happy medium between that and VG combat, but that's partly what these testing phases are for. Getting your panties in a twist because they don't have this nailed down in early pre-alpha seems a bit premature.

Even things like unique class buffs. Just make them zone wide or LOS group auras. I don't need to be recasting that HP buff that only I can cast, every 8.2 minutes. If I'm the only class that has it, having me here is enough. Aura. Done.

As someone who enjoys playing support/buff classes, I'm with you on this. Raiding as a shaman in classic EQ was painful and god help you if you were the only shaman who showed up to the raid. I'd stop short of auras though, maybe I'm alone on this point but I still enjoy being able to actually cast the buffs - I like the sounds, the visuals and being able to cast buffs on people not in my group. I'd prefer to actively be doing something rather than just giving my group benefits by existing in close proximity. Long duration group buffs would be just fine with me.
 
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Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think VG was a better "game" than EQ, but this of course brings up all the fun "EQ was a game!" arguments.

It was a chatroom for 9/10ths of players. VG was an actual game.

VG had some good things about it. But it was more like EQ2 and WoW. Nothing wrong with that other than we already have a ton of those types of games. EQ for better or worse has always had it's own unique place, especially classic.

What I miss most about classic EQ is feign death, bards, enchanters, and a true sense of danger. The potential to lose your corpse (and all of your gear) in an unrecoverable spot does things to the way you play the game.

Pantheon probably isn't bringing all of that to the table, and it's a shame.
 

zinc_turtle

Trakanon Raider
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152
... I mean its silly to think this game will remain like it is from here on out and bitching about "duty cycles" in a pre alpha game.
Yeah, I know that attitude is prevalent. No-one wants to be critical when the criticism will potentially make a difference, for whatever reason.
When I am complaining about these things, it's with the desperate hope that one of the few uncensored communication mechanisms (these forums) might actually have an impact. The official forums are certainly no place for feedback, with half the new threads being locked daily. Your puny Gods won't help you if you try to be honest, there.

I expect elegance, precision, and surgical accuracy from seasoned professionals. Not this. Yes, I'm being harsh. Yes, their public mistakes thus far warrant it.

As a broad strokes examples, consider the problem with Rogues.
In a classic DnD scenario, they add value because of Backstab for damage. They can hide in shadows, sneak, move silently, and ideally, pass perception/see hidden checks. Use of poison, disarming traps, picking locks, use-magic-items, different physical damage types. Of course, in EQ1, up until Kunark, there was I think 2 ignore-able traps and zero locks in the entire land of Norrath.

When you objectively compare out of combat utility for non-magic using classes with magic using classes, it's embarrassing. Just Bind & Gate alone almost makes it a no-brainer, yet.. you look at all the skills revealed thus far for Rogues in Pantheon: No poisons. No traps. No lockpicking. No traps in the world. No locks that can be picked in the world. No poisons. One damage type (physical only) And zone content rolling out the door as fast as the overworked and underpaid designers can produce it, with no consideration (as it should be) for a single class that derives all its value from out-of-combat utility. :| Why would you produce the content and consider balance, all for one class? You wouldn't. So, you're left with a pity class that has no carrot, when objectively compared to others. Again.

Now here comes Pantheon, and originally, Rogues were attractive because they had a powerful endurance based Mez. A clever player could mez two creatures, possibly three, but they were out of the fight while doing it. When it was down to 1, they could fight and mez one. Well hey now, Rogues are looking pretty fly, I might consider... nope. Bzzzt! That ability was changed so much the next time it was shown to the public, that it is now relegated to gimmick status. Ok, so now Rogues are back to shit sandwiches, and another opportunity for the genre is lost. </golfclap>

The options? Show how blunt, pierce, or slash affects different creatures, significantly. Not shown. No indication it's a design goal. Multiple damage types for all classes. Not shown. No indication it's a design goal.

I get the defense of pre-alpha. I really do. This is the time they're making changes, trying shit out, awesome. Great. But these developers are supposed to be pros. OLD PROS. Why, then, are we seeing such amateur hour attempts at repeating historical failures? Drives me nuts. I learned my lesson with the EQ1 Rogue. Never again. But for real? Why do it wrong again? Why not, given the opportunity, do it right? These games live or die on class balance changes, and despite having years to get it right, they're just reading from the same ol' Big Book Of Fail, and it's frustrating beyond words.
 
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Nullify

Trakanon Raider
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18
VG had some good things about it. But it was more like EQ2 and WoW. Nothing wrong with that other than we already have a ton of those types of games. EQ for better or worse has always had it's own unique place, especially classic.

What I miss most about classic EQ is feign death, bards, enchanters, and a true sense of danger. The potential to lose your corpse (and all of your gear) in an unrecoverable spot does things to the way you play the game.

Pantheon probably isn't bringing all of that to the table, and it's a shame.

Feign death is in the game, in the Cohh stream awhile back where he was playing a monk it showed him FD splitting on pulls and other shenanigans. Enchanters are in the game and I believe they said bards are planned post-launch (take that with a grain of salt I suppose). As far as losing your gear, in the last stream it looked like you leave all your items on your corpse when you die and have to go back to retrieve them, though Brad did mention that the death penalty is subject to change as they get testing feedback.
 

Faux

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Now here comes Pantheon, and originally, Rogues were attractive because they had a powerful endurance based Mez. A clever player could mez two creatures, possibly three, but they were out of the fight while doing it. When it was down to 1, they could fight and mez one. Well hey now, Rogues are looking pretty fly, I might consider... nope. Bzzzt! That ability was changed so much the next time it was shown to the public, that it is now relegated to gimmick status. Ok, so now Rogues are back to shit sandwiches, and another opportunity for the genre is lost. </golfclap>

I quite enjoyed the Vanguard rogues until you hit level 51-55. They had a rogue only poison crafting system that gave some utility outside of just damage. For class specific flavor, you could craft darts with a variety of effects to take on the role of crowd control, slower or whatever. You also had flechettes to boost your AE damage or increase your stealth skill, and more. Lastly, you could craft your own weapon procs to add more damage, reduce your own agro, etc...

I had a great time crawling through Nusibe Necropolis as the puller and crowd control for my group. I could blackjack a mob to split up groups, pull 2-3 others, and keep 2 of them locked down while the group killed them one at a time. The trade off was I couldn't be in combat while actively crowd controlling. All that went out the window in the 51-55 game. Most mobs were just coded immune to that stuff. It was such a jarring change for me, I hardly played my rogue again.

On a side note, one of the 51-55 abilities we got was called Hostage Negotiations that was similar to the Pantheon rogue ability you were describing. I think SOE thought it was too overpowered though because they basically deactivated it and never fixed it.
 
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TomServo

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Time to bust out your manilla folder full of graph-paper D&D dungeon maps from middle school, boys.

On the Enchanter bit, I'll always be mildly bummed at Furor selling us on the Priest as a mesh of Enchanter/Cleric, then the only actual enchanter-y thing it did was toss people into lava pits.

Best part of waiting for BWL raids.
 

Raign

Golden Squire
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Middle school? Bro I was 25 and printing our EQ maps at work.

Lol, I resemble that. Start EQ because I was moving out of province for another job as a way to keep in touch with my gamer geek friends back home in 99-00. I was 25 at the time. Pretty sure that if they had had any idea how many hours I spent printing crap from Allakazam at work they would have told me to get on the next plane back :p
 
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